Signing and Returning scorecard Rule 6-6b

[HawkeyeMS]

I'm actually amazed anyone would sign their card before they have hit a shot. It just doesn't make any logical sense at all. The rules are complicated in places but I'm with Imurg on this one, if the rule starts with the words "After completion of the round" then that applies to the whole rule. Trying to argue otherwise is just daft

 

[HawkeyeMS]

you seem to be concluding that this is not the case currently.......

as written the player is not required to sign at a particular point between receiving the card and returning it

if the ruling bodies require that signature at a particular point then yes, I would agree with you that it needs re-wording :thup:

The rule says...

6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play

a. Recording Scores

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

So, the marker signs the card on completion of the round, the player signs the card after completion of the round. Exactly where is the confusion?

 

[duncan mackie]

The rule says...

6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play

a. Recording Scores

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. this bitHe must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

So, the marker signs the card on completion of the round, the player signs the card after completion of the round. Exactly where is the confusion?

I don't have any confusion

 

[Imurg]

So what does the competitor signing his card actually mean?
Why do we do it..?

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm actually amazed anyone would sign their card before they have hit a shot. It just doesn't make any logical sense at all. The rules are complicated in places but I'm with Imurg on this one, if the rule starts with the words "After completion of the round" then that applies to the whole rule. Trying to argue otherwise is just daft

you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't throw the phrase daft around ...........

if you want an explict example look at post #102 in this thread - http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?57850-Declaring-a-ball-lost/page11

the parallels are very useful

 

[duncan mackie]

So what does the competitor signing his card actually mean?
Why do we do it..?

an excellent question! :thup:

the following situations might help to both illustrate this, and reinforce why signing your card earlier could cause you a problem (outwith a direct breach!!!!)

1. a fellow competitor/marker posts your already signed card to the box before you get the chance to 'check it'
2. your card gets dropped by your marker after signing it, and is subsequently put in the box by someone

basically you loose 'control'

which is why it's not a recommended procedure, but the risks are all yours....

 

[Imurg]

Agreed but my point is more "what does signing the card actually signify"?

If I sign a cheque I'm confirming the details on it to be correct and that I authorise payment
If I sign a contract I'm confirming my acceptance of the t's and c's..

So what am I confirming when I sign my card?
Am I confirming anything? If not why do we have to bother - apart from it being in the rule...

 

[duncan mackie]

Agreed but my point is more "what does signing the card actually signify"?

If I sign a cheque I'm confirming the details on it to be correct and that I authorise payment
If I sign a contract I'm confirming my acceptance of the t's and c's..

So what am I confirming when I sign my card?
Am I confirming anything? If not why do we have to bother - apart from it being in the rule...

it's the 'apart' bit - that's all. In theory you acould argue that the marker's signature and a returned card is all that required - I've given simple examples of why this wouldn't be appropriate.

bringing cheques into it is interesting - is it more important to enter the amount, the payee or the signature; the reality is that many people sign a cheque with both amount and payee blank! Tey understand and accept the consequences (well sometime they understand them).

so the rule's there to protect you, if you choose to pre-sign you simply waive some of that protection.

 

[Old Skier]

The R&A are doing an on line rules academy for those interested. Clubs should have received details from Kevin Barker via their counties. Perhaps this is the way forward to interpreting the rules the same way.

 

[duncan mackie]

The R&A are doing an on line rules academy for those interested. Clubs should have received details from Kevin Barker via their counties. Perhaps this is the way forward to interpreting the rules the same way.

bluntly it has no relevance at this level - interpretation isn't a variable

it's an interesting response to the huge over application to the Golf England rules schools over the last few years, but doesn't really deal with the core issues that the Rules Schools were set up to deal with in the first place!

as anyone whose acting as an RO in a professional/elite event will know the reality is 80% pop, 18% relief situations and 2% other - most of which will then be refered to the TD! The real work happens prior to play.

 

[Colin L]

I'm actually amazed anyone would sign their card before they have hit a shot. It just doesn't make any logical sense at all. The rules are complicated in places but I'm with Imurg on this one, if the rule starts with the words "After completion of the round" then that applies to the whole rule. Trying to argue otherwise is just daft

I'll continue to be just daft, then.

The argument that the opening words of the rule apply to the whole rule is unsound because of its two sentence structure. You cannot arbitrarily yoke the first part of one sentence to another. For example, this "rule" does not mean that I have to feed my cat after my dinner. There are two separate statements:

After dinner, I must clean my teeth. I must make sure the cat is fed.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Whilst I agree that signing before the round is a bit odd, and it makes little sense to do so, the original question was whether it is a breach of 6-6b. If it is then the penalty is DQ. We have had arguments based on the wording and structure of the Rule and I can see how this may give rise to ambiguity but in my view the arguments have to be based on the purpose of the Rule in terms of the playing of the game.

I therefore approached this by asking myself what is the purpose of the Rule and whether the Rule is there to enable the disqualification of a player for signing a card before the start of the round, or indeed at any other time before the completion of the round, and if so why.

Scenario. Player hands you his card to mark on the first tee after you have all teed off. He has signed it. You tell him he is DQ'd from the comp under Rule 6-6b. Is that the intention of the Rule?

If it was I think it would be much more clear that this was the intention. I don't think the Rules are there to catch you out with nuances of grammar. They have to be practical and pragmatic. In my view the purpose of the Rule is to set out what should and must be done before the card is returned.

Of course the signature on the card confirms the player's agreement to the scores etc recorded on it. The timing of the act of signing per se is of less importance than the fact it is signed. As Duncan has said premature signing carries a risk but I don't think it is intended to be a DQ breach and I therefore think that the Rule as written simply reflects this, hence the fact that there are 2 separate sentences (as Duncan and Colin have explained).

If signing earlier means that the scores or other required info on the card are wrong that is dealt with under separate provisions so again I can see no purpose in applying a DQ simply on the basis of the card being signed before the round is completed.

That was my thinking anyway. I might be wrong, it might be daft. Would be good to get a opinion from the R&A.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I'll continue to be just daft, then.

The argument that the opening words of the rule apply to the whole rule is unsound because of its two sentence structure. You cannot arbitrarily yoke the first part of one sentence to another. For example, this "rule" does not mean that I have to feed my cat after my dinner. There are two separate statements:

After dinner, I must clean my teeth. I must make sure the cat is fed.

If the order doesn't matter, that means I can return my card to the committee and then some time later sign it. I'll remind the competition secretary of that next time he DQs someone for forgetting to sign their card.

While we're looking for alternate meanings in what is on the face of it a straightforward process, if you sign your card before the round and the marker puts a higher score for one hole than it should be. At the end of the round, have you automatically signed for an incorrect score and are therefore DQ'd?

EDIT:

One more point having read this again...

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

If the two sentences are separate statements, who is "he" in the second sentence?

 

[MashieNiblick]

If the order doesn't matter, that means I can return my card to the committee and then some time later sign it. I'll remind the competition secretary of that next time he DQs someone for forgetting to sign their card.

If only...

Rule 6-6c

c. Alteration of Score Card
No alteration may be made on a score card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee.

While we're looking for alternate meanings in what is on the face of it a straightforward process, if you sign your card before the round and the marker puts a higher score for one hole than it should be. At the end of the round, have you automatically signed for an incorrect score and are therefore DQ'd?

The requirement, under 6-6d, is only that is has to be correct when it is returned

d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.

And 6-6c enables you to change it as long as you do so before it is returned.

See also See also Decision 6-6c/1 When Score Card Considered Returned

This is partly why I think the timing of signing, as long as it done before the card is returned, is not the crux of the Rule.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

If only...

Rule 6-6c

c. Alteration of Score Card
No alteration may be made on a score card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee.



The requirement, under 6-6d, is only that is has to be correct when it is returned

d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.

And 6-6c enables you to change it as long as you do so before it is returned.

See also See also Decision 6-6c/1 When Score Card Considered Returned

This is partly why I think the timing of signing, as long as it done before the card is returned, is not the crux of the Rule.

Obviously I meant lower score not higher! (Always good to check things when you're trying to make a point!)

 

[MashieNiblick]

Obviously I meant lower score not higher! (Always good to check things when you're trying to make a point!)

Higher or lower I believe you can still alter it before you return it, even if you have already signed the card, so long as your marker or the Committe is satisfied it is correct. Decision 6-6b/7 Score Corrected by Competitor After Marker Leaves Area in Which Card Returned.

 

[Old Skier]

interpretation isn't a variable

Reading this thread it appears to be a rather large variable. Unless your saying that your interpretation is correct and you are in a position to know its correct and then I will willing accept your interpretation.

 

[Colin L]

If the order doesn't matter, that means I can return my card to the committee and then some time later sign it. I'll remind the competition secretary of that next time he DQs someone for forgetting to sign their card.

I wouldn't bother. There is no question but that 6-6b requires the card to be signed when it is handed in. The question here is whether the player is required to sign the card after the round or can sign it at any time beforehand.

While we're looking for alternate meanings in what is on the face of it a straightforward process, if you sign your card before the round and the marker puts a higher score for one hole than it should be. At the end of the round, have you automatically signed for an incorrect score and are therefore DQ'd?

All that matters is the score that is on the card when it is submitted to the Committee

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

If the two sentences are separate statements, who is "he" in the second sentence?

Clearly "he" is the competitor in the previous sentence. That is not arbitrary: the grammar and structure make the relationship. I don't see an absolute relationship of that kind with after completion of the round. There may well be an implied sequence of events, but as I said, I don't see how you can DQ someone on something possibly implied. The wording for rule purposes would have to be explicit.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Clearly "he" is the competitor in the previous sentence. That is not arbitrary: the grammar and structure make the relationship. I don't see an absolute relationship of that kind with after completion of the round. There may well be an implied sequence of events, but as I said, I don't see how you can DQ someone on something possibly implied. The wording for rule purposes would have to be explicit.

Personally I think it is quite clear that the whole thing should take place after completion of the round, but I don't think we'll ever agree on that.

 

[Old Skier]

I wish we could move away from the DQ side of this. Most people end up being DQ's through ignorance of the rules and not through a wish to gain an advantage. I would have though the whole purpose of this was to find out what the correct proceedure is so that nobody is DQ'd through ignorance or the actions of other competitors (ie raising the point with the already overworked committee members).