Signing and Returning scorecard Rule 6-6b

[TXL]

Add scores up.
Confirm with FC that he agrees with my total for him.
Sign card as marker and hand it over.
Confirm with my marker that I agree with his total for me.
Marker signs my card and hands it over.
I sign my card after checking he's written what he just said.

Gary, I would be careful with this approach. I saw a situation last week where a competitor did as you say "check the totals" and handed their card in. Whilst checking we found that a birdie had been recorded instead of a par and a bogie instead of a par. The totals were correct but the scores for 2 holes were not - instant DQ. Remember, you are not signing for the addition, you are only signing for the gross scores on each hole (along with the other details - handicap, name, date etc).

 

[Imurg]

I don't interpret 6-6b that rigidly in this context. If it wasn't split into 2 sentences I would agree - but it is, so I don't

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee.
He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

The way I read that is they are giving you an order of steps to follow.
Check scores...
Settle doubtful points
Ensure Marker has signed
Sign card
Return card

That must be the proper way to proceed, so signing your card before you play is not right.
Whether a penalty should be imposed I'm not sure but there possibly should be some sanction ..

 

[Foxholer]

The way I read that is they are giving you an order of steps to follow.
Check scores...
Settle doubtful points
Ensure Marker has signed
Sign card
Return card

That must be the proper way to proceed, so signing your card before you play is not right.
Whether a penalty should be imposed I'm not sure but there possibly should be some sanction ..

Implication may be there, but not compulsion.

Had it been in a single sentence (as Duncan posted) or the word 'then' used (between 'must' and 'ensure') then it would also be compelling. But, as it is worded now, it's not compulsory. Even the use of the word 'also' instead of 'then' wouldn't compel.

 

[Old Skier]

I always though the rules were pretty straight forward providing you used common sense, and then I started reading the rules forum

 

[Imurg]

Implication may be there, but not compulsion.

Had it been in a single sentence (as Duncan posted) or the word 'then' used (between 'must' and 'ensure') then it would also be compelling. But, as it is worded now, it's not compulsory. Even the use of the word 'also' instead of 'then' wouldn't compel.

So how can it be right to sign a card without checking scores that haven't been made?
Signing the card is your confirmation that the information is true and correct. If you haven't even hit a ball then this simply has to be wrong regardless of grammar

 

[Foxholer]

So how can it be right to sign a card without checking scores that haven't been made?
Signing the card is your confirmation that the information is true and correct. If you haven't even hit a ball then this simply has to be wrong regardless of grammar

Quite probably so. And that's what I'd do.

But the question the OP asked, implicitly, was 'Is it against the Rules to sign Scorecard before completion'. And I believe the answer to that question is 'No'.

 

[Old Skier]

Rule 6 - The Player


6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play


a. Recording Scores


After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.
b. Signing and Returning Score Card


After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.


Which bit of ON COMPLETION OF THE ROUND is not clear.

 

[Foxholer]

Rule 6 - The Player


6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play


a. Recording Scores


After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.
b. Signing and Returning Score Card


After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.


Which bit of ON COMPLETION OF THE ROUND is not clear.

Does the wording imply that he should sign it after completion of the round? Yes, probably.
Does it actually state that he must sign it after completion of the round? No, not specifically.

Refer earlier posts about 2 separate sentences vs 1 and the absence of the word 'then' (or equivalent). Or even if 'a' and 'b' were 'After each Hole' and 'On Completion of the Round'. But as that's not the way it is worded/titled, it's not against the Rule to sign before.

Quite a different wording for the Marker though.

 

[Imurg]

Rule 6 - The Player


6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play


a. Recording Scores


After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.
b. Signing and Returning Score Card


After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.


Which bit of ON COMPLETION OF THE ROUND is not clear.

Does the wording imply that he should sign it after completion of the round? Yes.
Does it actually state that he must sign it after completion of the round? No.

Refer earlier posts about 2 separate sentences vs 1 and the absence of the word 'then' (or equivalent). Or even under a clause 'On Completion of the Round'.

Quite a different wording for the Marker though.

You're quibbling over Grammar - It clearly gives a procedure to follow

He "must" ensure the Marker has signed the card "comma", sign the card himself then return it to the Committee....

So he has to ensure the marker has signed before he himself signs the card - there is no other way to interpret that unless I've been using a different form of English for the last 50 years......

 

[Foxholer]

You're quibbling over Grammar - It clearly gives a procedure to follow

He "must" ensure the Marker has signed the card "comma", sign the card himself then return it to the Committee....

So he has to ensure the marker has signed before he himself signs the card - there is no other way to interpret that unless I've been using a different form of English for the last 50 years......

You've misquoted the important sentence - which makes a huge difference! Which demonstrates why the grammar is so important.
The bold 'then' would indeed specify the order of events. The actual wording 'and' merely specify what events.

 

[Imurg]

So what is the effect of signing your scorecard?

 

[MashieNiblick]

Fascinating read.

As I read it the Rule sets out the things that should and must be done before the card is handed in, but I agree with those who say that there isn't a requirement to do them in a specific order for the reasons they have given. Where a Rule does require things to be done in a particular order it is always made very clear (e.g lifting and marking or playing a provisional ball).

I have had a card handed to me from my marker unsigned (because he has forgotten) checked the scores with him, signed it then asked him to. On a strict intrerpetion that is against the Rules but I don't think the Rule is looking to penalise people for that kind of thing.

The act of signing the card in my view, in itself, is not so important as the fact of the signature being on the card. Like signing a cheque. It doesn't matter whether you sign it before or after you fill in the other details but it has to have the signature to be valid.

Of course it is better practice to do things in the order set out in the Rule but I don't think the R&A's intention here is to set out a strict process that must be followed to the letter or else the ultimate sanction is applied. It is the outcome that is important not the process.

 

[Old Skier]

Some of the arguments on here make me realise why the rle book and decisions of golf are getting so complicated. I picked up a member who took a drop and used his driver with a head cover on. When I suggested he retake the drop with out the head cover his responce was "The rule book didn't state that he was required to move the headcover." It seems that some on here need every t crossed and I dotted. They sound like a committee's worst nightmare.

 

[Imurg]

Whilst I will agree that the actual order of things isn't set in stone, the one thing that is, in the wording of the rule, is the phrase "After completion of the round"
If you sign the scorecard before you play you are in breach of this phrase of the rule....unless you sign it again after completion of the round.

 

[Colin L]

Some of the arguments on here make me realise why the rle book and decisions of golf are getting so complicated. I picked up a member who took a drop and used his driver with a head cover on. When I suggested he retake the drop with out the head cover his responce was "The rule book didn't state that he was required to move the headcover." It seems that some on here need every t crossed and I dotted. They sound like a committee's worst nightmare.

I wouldn't like anyone to feel inhibited in coming on to the forum to get their Ts crossed or their Is dotted. What seems obvious to one player is something another needs explained. And sometimes what seems obvious to one player turns out to be mistaken. Like telling someone they cannot measure a club length with the headcover on his driver in order to establish roughly where to drop (I hope I've understood correctly that's what you were saying). What matters is that a dropped ball strikes the course within two club lengths. Whether a player first measures with a club with a cover, with a club without a cover - or does not measure it at all doesn't matter. He is under no obligation to measure. And getting a rough idea using a club with a cover on is fine. It is only if there is doubt about whether a ball struck the course within 2 club lengths that any measuring has to be done and then, yes, it would have to be without a head cover.

Had the other player dropped correctly within two club lengths and then been persuaded by you to re-drop, he would have incurred a 2 stroke penalty for moving his ball and not replacing it. Costly advice to give someone.

 

[Old Skier]

My mistake, I did'nt realise you could guess the two club lengths when you drop from an unplayable lie. However this is distracting from the original thread for which I apologise.

 

[duncan mackie]

Whilst I will agree that the actual order of things isn't set in stone, the one thing that is, in the wording of the rule, is the phrase "After completion of the round"

phrases such as

"The player may continue searching for two more minutes."

"The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant."

"The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule)."

All illustrate why context is vital and how the consideration of any words as 'set in stone' is clearly flawed...

 

[Imurg]

So "after completion of the round" doesn't mean " after completion of the round".....?

 

[duncan mackie]

So "after completion of the round" doesn't mean " after completion of the round".....?

The sentence reads - "After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee."

The context is clearly stated.

this has now probably become the most quoted sentence from the rules in any thread........and this one's only 4 pages!

 

[williamalex1]

Card checked and signed by the marker and the player BEFORE being handed in, sounds so simple.