Shortest Stroke 1 hole

jim8flog

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Since WHS, and even before, I know some clubs have changed SI's purely based on Stableford scores.

I've played some weird matches when set for Stableford, where a shot is given for a pretty basic hole yet not given for a long one.

Surely that is more likely to happen when SIs are set up for match play.

One thing that is noticeable where I play is that setting up purely based upon difficulty has highlighted that par 3s are not as easy as some think and par 5s are probably the easiest.

Our 3s are SIs 3,5,7 and 14
Our 5s are 18,17 and 13

I hardly ever play match play so my preference is for set up based upon difficulty.
 

Swango1980

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Surely that is more likely to happen when SIs are set up for match play.

One thing that is noticeable where I play is that setting up purely based upon difficulty has highlighted that par 3s are not as easy as some think and par 5s are probably the easiest.

Our 3s are SIs 3,5,7 and 14
Our 5s are 18,17 and 13

I hardly ever play match play so my preference is for set up based upon difficulty.
If SI's are set up for match play, they are typically well spread out and generally based on length of hole. So it generally feels like they are well spread, and it never seemed to cause any "mental struggles" or "confidence boosts" during a match, if I put it that way.

The first course I played where they set them up for Stableford difficulty, they ended up having the 6 or 7 lowest SIs in a stretch of about 8 holes, starting early in front 9. So, if you are giving away a handful of shots, then you need to really hang on early in the game. If you start losing those holes, your mentality can decline and the higher handicapper can grow in confidence. The match can almost feel over before its barely started, and may never get to the final holes. Conversely, the match may be over for the higher handicapper before its barely started, if most of their shots come towards the end.

The above wouldn't be so bad if the difficulties were genuinely representative of where a higher handicap needs their shots in a match, but it is not. For example, take a 450 yard par 4 and a 480 yard par 5, both with similar obstacles / topography. If we take Stableford and trying to shoot par, then the 450 yard par 4 is definitely going to feel harder. However, in a match where we don't think of par, then a higher handicapper is more likely going to need the shot on a hole is 480 yards rather than 450 yards. And the above can be more extreme than that. If set up for Stableford, in a match the higher handicapper may get a shot on a 200 yard par 3 but not get a shot on a 500 yard par 5. A 200 yard par 3 is not an easy 3 for a lower handicapper, but can be a very easy 4 for a high handicapper, so in a match maybe not ideal to give a shot there. Whereas a 500 yard par 5 can be a relatively easy 5 for a low handicapper (if not 4 for a low big hitter), and yet still very tough to get a 5 for a high handicapper. So in a match they'd do better with a shot there.
 

Backache

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SI is utterly irrelevant to stroke play and affects Stableford little as it predominantly determines which holes you score on rather than the total score.
I never take any notice of the SI unless I'm playing match play.
 

jim8flog

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If SI's are set up for match play, they are typically well spread out and generally based on length of hole. So it generally feels like they are well spread, and it never seemed to cause any "mental struggles" or "confidence boosts" during a match, if I put it that way.

The first course I played where they set them up for Stableford difficulty, they ended up having the 6 or 7 lowest SIs in a stretch of about 8 holes, starting early in front 9. So, if you are giving away a handful of shots, then you need to really hang on early in the game. If you start losing those holes, your mentality can decline and the higher handicapper can grow in confidence. The match can almost feel over before its barely started, and may never get to the final holes. Conversely, the match may be over for the higher handicapper before its barely started, if most of their shots come towards the end.

The above wouldn't be so bad if the difficulties were genuinely representative of where a higher handicap needs their shots in a match, but it is not. For example, take a 450 yard par 4 and a 480 yard par 5, both with similar obstacles / topography. If we take Stableford and trying to shoot par, then the 450 yard par 4 is definitely going to feel harder. However, in a match where we don't think of par, then a higher handicapper is more likely going to need the shot on a hole is 480 yards rather than 450 yards. And the above can be more extreme than that. If set up for Stableford, in a match the higher handicapper may get a shot on a 200 yard par 3 but not get a shot on a 500 yard par 5. A 200 yard par 3 is not an easy 3 for a lower handicapper, but can be a very easy 4 for a high handicapper, so in a match maybe not ideal to give a shot there. Whereas a 500 yard par 5 can be a relatively easy 5 for a low handicapper (if not 4 for a low big hitter), and yet still very tough to get a 5 for a high handicapper. So in a match they'd do better with a shot there.


I still maintain that the authorities got it right in that there should be two cards, one for match and the other for stableford. Which is something that we did originally. Trouble is there are a a lot of golfers who do not understand that simple concept and our club we often had players using the wrong card hence a decision to have just one and to have it based upon by far the most played format which at our club is stableford ( I have said this on many an occasion). I also bet a lot of clubs would not be bothered - does yours?


I have tried, without success, to have both sets of SIs on one card here, but I bet there would still be a few who get it wrong.
 

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SI is utterly irrelevant to stroke play and affects Stableford little as it predominantly determines which holes you score on rather than the total score.
I never take any notice of the SI unless I'm playing match play.
I don't think SIs are totally irrelevant in stroke play.
If you have an extremely tough long par 4, currently stroke 1, which is very difficult to reach in 2 as it requires a long carry over trouble to the green and has a difficult green - the sort of hole that you would take a 5 on it if offered on the tee - then a 6 for a point is often a good and frequent score. If this becomes say stroke 17, then you can score 6, 7, 8 or more and still have the same points - 0. I'd much prefer to have shots (in Stableford comps and for handicapping) on the toughest, normally longest, holes.
 

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Our stroke index 1 hole is 356 yards off yellows, Par 4 obviously.

However, you miss fairway left, you are dead in the PA. Go right you are in the trees or even lost/OB. There is a bunker places right of fairway which makes lay up tricky, as if you lay up short of it you have probably 180 yards to green minimum. There is a PA right in front of green, so that has to be carried, and the green is very shallow.

This a golf forum and everyone should be hitting that green off the tee 🤣
 

D-S

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I still maintain that the authorities got it right in that there should be two cards, one for match and the other for stableford. Which is something that we did originally. Trouble is there are a a lot of golfers who do not understand that simple concept and our club we often had players using the wrong card hence a decision to have just one and to have it based upon by far the most played format which at our club is stableford ( I have said this on many an occasion). I also bet a lot of clubs would not be bothered - does yours?


I have tried, without success, to have both sets of SIs on one card here, but I bet there would still be a few who get it wrong.
I agree with this. However, 5 or 6 years ago we did a South Wales golf trip with the boys and played Pennard, Ashburnham and Porthcawl (this was still affordable for that sort of trip then, green fees were way less than half of what they are now). They all had dual SIs, either both on the same card or separate cards for matchplay and stroke play. Despite being a simple concept it was carnage with half the group either using the wrong card or column on the card - the scores were all over the place.
 

Voyager EMH

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Really boring at our course.
Stroke 1 is our longest par-5 and stroke 18 is the shortest par-3.
Stroke 2 is the longest par-4 on the back nine and stroke 17 is the shortest par-3 on the front nine.
 

Swango1980

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I still maintain that the authorities got it right in that there should be two cards, one for match and the other for stableford. Which is something that we did originally. Trouble is there are a a lot of golfers who do not understand that simple concept and our club we often had players using the wrong card hence a decision to have just one and to have it based upon by far the most played format which at our club is stableford ( I have said this on many an occasion). I also bet a lot of clubs would not be bothered - does yours?


I have tried, without success, to have both sets of SIs on one card here, but I bet there would still be a few who get it wrong.
Our club still has them set up for Match Play, I think most do in my experience. It doesn't really cause any issues at all, except every now and then the odd person grumbles by saying (Hole x is harder than Hole y, why do the SI's suggest differently). But this sort of issue is not exactly significant, and everyone gets their shots over the 18 holes anyway. Whereas when our club has gone to another where the SIs are set up for Stableford, they are almost universally slated in the way they can impact the match on a hole by hole basis. That includes players from the home club criticizing them for matches. Of course, one course I went to it was extreme, as I said, where the SI's ended up being all bunched together. This will not be the case at all clubs, so may be felt less.

At our club, the opening hole is a par 4, over 450 yards. I suspect that would become SI 1 if done on Stableford. So, if you are only giving one shot in a match and it goes to a play off, you've to give it immediately on the first play off hole. This will be tough on the lower handicapper. Both players are of very similar ability anyway, it would probably feel more appropriate to give that shot later on, on one of the par 5's over 500 yards.

Not against having the 2 sets of SI to be fair, you described the issue with having 2 cards though. However, I'd be for your idea of having the 2 sets of SI on one card. At my last club, we decided to have 2 sets of SI, one for white tees and one for yellow tees. Sure, occasionally a golfer might look at the wrong SI, just like they sometimes mark a card on the 1st hole when starting somewhere else in a shotgun start. But not exactly a major issue, and I'm sure golfers would easily crack it assuming each column was clearly marked as Stab SI and Match SI, or something like that.
 

Swango1980

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I agree with this. However, 5 or 6 years ago we did a South Wales golf trip with the boys and played Pennard, Ashburnham and Porthcawl (this was still affordable for that sort of trip then, green fees were way less than half of what they are now). They all had dual SIs, either both on the same card or separate cards for matchplay and stroke play. Despite being a simple concept it was carnage with half the group either using the wrong card or column on the card - the scores were all over the place.
Of course, this was a one-off golf trip. On a one-off golf trip, I played a course where there are actually 2 courses, but you play the same holes in a different order. Low and behold, I played them in the wrong order and had to run back and play them correctly (thankfully we realised when halfway down the first wrong hole)

However, I'm sure the guys on your golf trip would be able to get things right if this had simply been at your own course.
 

Crow

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I don't think SIs are totally irrelevant in stroke play.
If you have an extremely tough long par 4, currently stroke 1, which is very difficult to reach in 2 as it requires a long carry over trouble to the green and has a difficult green - the sort of hole that you would take a 5 on it if offered on the tee - then a 6 for a point is often a good and frequent score. If this becomes say stroke 17, then you can score 6, 7, 8 or more and still have the same points - 0. I'd much prefer to have shots (in Stableford comps and for handicapping) on the toughest, normally longest, holes.
But (in a Stableford comp) you'll get that shot back on another hole and score an extra point there, so your total score will be the same.
 

Swango1980

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Brampton Park has a 183 yard par 3 as SI1
SI 1!??????? How come, does it have a big windmill in front of the green?

Just seen it is 173 yards off yellows as well. It does seem odd, especially as the SIs do still seem to be set out for Match Play, the giveaway being that they are all odd on the front 9 and even on the back 9
 

BiMGuy

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Is that the one that's hidden in the middle of a forest surrounded by water.....?
PITA hole that one.... :ROFLMAO:
That’s the one. I have played it 4 times, and birdied it every time 💪🏻.

The first however, has destroyed me every time.
 

Albo

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I usually just count up my total shots so for me SI is pretty irrelevant, if I have a long par 4 with a long carry over trouble I will lay up, not going to change that approach based on SI, if I do or don’t get a shot I’m still not taking on the carry. Same for a shortish 5, if there is a chance of going for it in 2 and I’m feeling confident/the risk seems worth it based on hazards etc, I’m going for it regardless of SI getting a shot or not.
Play each shot on its own merit, not related to par or SI or handicap or previous shots.
I guess match play is the only time that could change, but I’m still not sure it would all that often, maybe if I’m 1 down going down 18, I’d take more of a risk of my opponent was on the green with a good looking putt, but generally speaking I would play each hole with the optimal scoring strategy as my aim
 
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Woking 9th hole is a par 4, 470 yards uphill.
I hit a big drive and a Sunday best 3 wood to get there (then left the putt short 😎)

It’s SI 9… because it’s matchplay based? I believe the logic would be that even a scratch golfer will most likely bogey it due to the length/difficulty?
 

srixon 1

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As a low single figure golfer I only ever look at stroke indexes when:
- Playing handicap matchplay
- When marking someone else’s card in a Stableford round.

Last week I marked the card for the four of us in our weekly Stableford swindle. What a PITA that was. One guy had 23 shots. Made my head hurt keeping track of it. Specially on stroke 1 par 4 hole when he proudly said that’s a 6 for 2 points 🤬
 

Swango1980

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As a low single figure golfer I only ever look at stroke indexes when:
- Playing handicap matchplay
- When marking someone else’s card in a Stableford round.

Last week I marked the card for the four of us in our weekly Stableford swindle. What a PITA that was. One guy had 23 shots. Made my head hurt keeping track of it. Specially on stroke 1 par 4 hole when he proudly said that’s a 6 for 2 points 🤬
I played with a 27 handicapper on Sunday who had 49 points. In fairness, a few holes were on winter greens, and this makes one of the Par 5's into a 230 yard Par 3. SI 5. He had a gross 3, nett 1, 6 points

EDIT: Clearly this even messed my head up. I've just remembered I only game him 5 points on this hole. That means he did actually finish up with 50 points, not 49. I'll text him the good news.
 
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Imurg

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As a low single figure golfer I only ever look at stroke indexes when:
- Playing handicap matchplay
- When marking someone else’s card in a Stableford round.

Last week I marked the card for the four of us in our weekly Stableford swindle. What a PITA that was. One guy had 23 shots. Made my head hurt keeping track of it. Specially on stroke 1 par 4 hole when he proudly said that’s a 6 for 2 points 🤬
Don't ever play with Fragger then.....6 for 3 on par 5s.....but it's the 8 for 1s that get me.....
 
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