Second vote ? Why not .?

[chrisd]

Sorry Chris but surely that can’t be true as surely in a democracy we can have a vote to rejoin etc and also wasn’t the initial vote actually more of a “guideline” etc etc as opposed to be “legally binding “

Lots of presumptions possibly

Remember democracy does mean things can be discussed and things can be voted on again and things can change etc

If the government decided to follow a democratic process and have another vote to see if people still want to leave when they know what deal or no deal we will get or not get then that still being part of democracy

Not really arguing that there can't/ shouldn't be another vote Phil, but it can't just be because the losers don't like the fact that they lost. A 2nd vote on the terms would be ok by me if it was really on that one subject but you and i both know that the real reason for calling for it is simply to appease the SILH's of the country and to remain in the EU

 

[SocketRocket]

The government is in no way bound to abide by the outcome of the referendum, let alone accept it blindly if it knows it's to the detriment of the country.

The government had a vote on having a referendum that was passed by a large majority, they also put a booklet through all our doors promising to carry out the result of the referendum. This talk of the government not being bound by the outcome is naive balderdash and we all know it. If the result had been to stay would you be saying that its not binding so should be ignored? Of course you wouldn't so please give up on this nonsense.

 

[woody69]

I would suggest that some people
( like me ) have actually seen the effects of the EU and have been affected by the EU and would be more ignorant to Stay in the EU than say shove your club. Some might be ignorant and may of been persuaded by lies to vote Brexit. In the same token some people have not been affected by the EU and were taken in by the Remain lies and voted to stay. Come what may none of that warrants a second vote.

Can you give me a little more information on how you have been affected by the EU? I'm interested to hear what it was.

Likewise, can you expand upon your statement on the lies told by the remain camp?

Either way, I agree with your last sentence. Another vote isn't necessary IMHO.

 

[bobmac]

If there was a vote on whatever deal/no deal we end up with, what choices would be on the voting form?

 

[Blue in Munich]

there is a valid argument that a 16 yo today will be more effected by these decisions than a 70yo .. yet they have no say in the decision.. not saying let them vote but its another example why it cant be left to the general public because most vote on selfish reasons and not for the greater good. I voted remain on the fact I dont want my personal situation to change at all its how I like it., however that might be selfish on other peoples needs.. same for people who voted leave they might be voting because of their own reasons

it should be left to the MPs. thats what they are paid for.

There is equally a valid argument that if it turns out to be beneficial to the country then the 16 year olds will gain far more from it than the 70 year olds who are being pilloried for voting selfishly.

 

[SocketRocket]

Firstly, a general election happens every 3-5 years on average - so its different, this is possibly for good.

I didnt say that 17m leavers were a protest vote - dont know where you got that one from.

If the vote had gone the other way but packs of lies had been proven to be told by the remainers, would you not want a second vote, or would you just toddle off home with an "ah well"......

No I think for myself and havent read any of the previous threads on Brexit.

Any more guff you want debunking?

Packs of lies had been told by the remainers.

 

[SocketRocket]

Sorry Chris but surely that can’t be true as surely in a democracy we can have a vote to rejoin etc and also wasn’t the initial vote actually more of a “guideline” etc etc as ops of presumptions possibly

Remember democracy does mean things can be discussed and things can be voted on again and things can change etc

If the government decided to follow a democratic process and have another vote to see if people still want to leave when they know what deal or no deal we will get or not get then that still being part of democracy

To be democratic the result of a vote must be enacted before the matter can be voted on again.

 

[bluewolf]

I've seen numerous mentions on here regarding Countries that have voted agaist the EU, then have been "forced" to have another vote so that the "correct decision" was reached. The most famous of these obviously being the Republic of Ireland.

Now here's the interesting thing. There was recently a poll in Ireland regarding whether they'd like to leave the EU. 90% voted against leaving. 90%!!! Even allowing for statistical error and inherent bias, that's still a huge number. It's almost as though they almost made a huge mistake, but at the last minute recognised that they didn't have to commit themselves to it.

Anyhoo, here's an article from the time about that decision. The language is pretty striking is it not?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ntisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

Oh, and here's an article showing the recent poll.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....to-stay-in-eu-poll-reveals-1.3488112?mode=amp

 

[Fade and Die]

I've seen numerous mentions on here regarding Countries that have voted agaist the EU, then have been "forced" to have another vote so that the "correct decision" was reached. The most famous of these obviously being the Republic of Ireland.

Now here's the interesting thing. There was recently a poll in Ireland regarding whether they'd like to leave the EU. 90% voted against leaving. 90%!!! Even allowing for statistical error and inherent bias, that's still a huge number. It's almost as though they almost made a huge mistake, but at the last minute recognised that they didn't have to commit themselves to it.

Anyhoo, here's an article from the time about that decision. The language is pretty striking is it not?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ntisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

Oh, and here's an article showing the recent poll.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/more-than-90-of-irish-people-want-to-stay-in-eu-poll-reveals-1.3488112?mode=amp

Oh they was making a big mistake alright, they have taken 50 Billion Euros out of the EU since they joined...... Do you really think if the British were on such a gravy train we would have wanted out?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...crease-by-200m-after-brexit-hayes-825498.html

 

[bluewolf]

Oh they was making a big mistake alright, they have taken 50 Billion Euros out of the EU since they joined...... Do you really think if the British were on such a gravy train we would have wanted out?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...crease-by-200m-after-brexit-hayes-825498.html

The article you've quoted states that since 2014, Ireland have been a net contributor. This means that they've used the £50b to improve infrastructure and industry. They've improved the Economy to such a point that they've started paying back that "debt". I'd say that makes them a success story, does it not.
And since they've become a net contributor, they've still voted to stay by a margin of 9:1.
Can you imagine where they'd be if they hadn't joined?

 

[Liverbirdie]

Packs of lies had been told by the remainers.

I have no doubt there was but what I felt was the biggest whopper was the figures bandied out and about how much they would pump into the NHS with it - that was by far and away the biggest one.

Can I also ask why a second vote isnt democratic?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Packs of lies had been told by the remainers.

Biggest lie told was on the side of a bus was it not

 

[Liverbirdie]

When we vote at a General Election we know it's for a limited period, when we voted for Brexit we knew it was permanent - Exactly what I said.

No, you didn't say ALL 17m were a protest vote but suggested it was a significant number which isn't provable. - \polls have suggested that it would have been enough to alter the vote - even if 5-10% of those that voted leave did it as a protest and either didnt vote, or voted the other way would see a different result.

No, I wouldn't have wanted a 2nd vote, just like many Remainers who don't because they rely on democracy. Also, lies WERE told by both sides - Easy to say that now, and yes lies were told by both sides, but the big one was by the leavers.

 

[Fade and Die]

The article you've quoted states that since 2014, Ireland have been a net contributor. This means that they've used the £50b to improve infrastructure and industry. They've improved the Economy to such a point that they've started paying back that "debt". I'd say that makes them a success story, does it not.
And since they've become a net contributor, they've still voted to stay by a margin of 9:1.
Can you imagine where they'd be if they hadn't joined?

Its true they are a tiny net contributor now but in 2008 when they had their "Rethink" they had been on "benefits" for 35 years. I'm saying that this may have influenced their U turn.
Just like the GB having paid nearly Half a TRILLION pounds since 1973 might have influenced our decision to leave.

 

[bluewolf]

Its true they are a tiny net contributor now but in 2008 when they had their "Rethink" they had been on "benefits" for 35 years. I'm saying that this may have influenced their U turn.
Just like the GB having paid nearly Half a TRILLION pounds since 1973 might have influenced our decision to leave.

Strange that it would influence an immediate U Turn but not the original vote!! Are you saying that they didn't have enough information during the first vote, but when presented with better info they changed their minds? Then went on to improve their economy and become a net contributor?

It almost seems like you're making the argument for a 2nd vote 🤔😉

 

[woody69]

Packs of lies had been told by the remainers.

Can you be more specific?

 

[Fade and Die]

Strange that it would influence an immediate U Turn but not the original vote!! Are you saying that they didn't have enough information during the first vote, but when presented with better info they changed their minds? Then went on to improve their economy and become a net contributor?

It almost seems like you're making the argument for a 2nd vote 🤔😉

Maybe they got cold feet in the face of project fear!.........

Maybe they realized they would have to start paying their way and didn't fancy it. Bit like the Scots...... maybe its a Celtic trait?

 

[bluewolf]

Maybe they got cold feet in the face of project fear!.........

Maybe they realized they would have to start paying their way and didn't fancy it. Bit like the Scots...... maybe its a Celtic trait?

Hang on. You can't have it both ways. First off they changed their minds because they became better informed. Then they changed their minds because they were lied to!! Either way, they appear to have made the right choice in the 2nd vote. A 2nd vote that had avid Euro sceptics of the time frothing at the mouth and claiming it was anti democratic etc.
Now they're overwhelmingly in favour of the EU in only 10 years. Maybe we could learn something. Probably not though 😉

 

[SocketRocket]

Can you be more specific?

Do I really have to explain. Just look at project fear from Cameron and Osborne.

 

[Fade and Die]

Hang on. You can't have it both ways. First off they changed their minds because they became better informed. Then they changed their minds because they were lied to!! Either way, they appear to have made the right choice in the 2nd vote. A 2nd vote that had avid Euro sceptics of the time frothing at the mouth and claiming it was anti democratic etc.
Now they're overwhelmingly in favour of the EU in only 10 years. Maybe we could learn something. Probably not though 😉

In the words of Foxholer......Er No!

I said the Irish had a good reason for remaining. They was trousering loads of loot.

I said WE have a good reason for leaving....they are bleeding us white. (imo)

The reason the Irish changed their mind i do not know but if i had to guess i would say that they was subjected to an endless barrage of democracy deniers wailing on about how disastrous it would be.

And can you really say anyone is better informed? No one knows whats going to happen, I expect we will end up somewhere between Project Fear and Project Bullshit, and much like the Millennium Bug most people will be unaffected.