Scottish Fitba'

[Ian_George]

Slightly misleading ….

Ajax may have spent £94m on 15 players in the summer, but they sold 17 players for a total of £194m!!

That would indicate that Ajax is simply a much bigger club! That is equivalent to comparing Rangers & Celtic with Scottish Championship teams (at best), at least wrt transfer funding - which is a massive part of Ajax's funding and business model. On the other hand, Celtic posted an overall, if small, profit in 2022 (but a loss in 2021) whereas Ajax has made large overall losses across the last 2 years - obviously both Covid affected though. Rangers are in a similar, if less healthy, position to Celtic and might even post a profit for 2022

 

[BrianM]

Hard to pinpoint the exact reasons Rangers and Celtic struggled in Europe, it’s certainly a massive step up in standard compared to league duty for starters and sometimes difficult to reach the levels required at Champions league level.
Rangers were unlucky in the sense that Napoli have been on fire this season and would of been a tough game for any team, Liverpool are Liverpool, a world class side but having a slight dip in form in the league and Ajax are seasoned in the Champions league, normally in it every year and do alright, that shouldn’t be an excuse for not being competitive though.
My own opinion is we need a more competitive league and we need bigger salaries to get better players, the problem is getting them to Scotland in the first place when they can earn more money down south, I’m taking Championship and league 1, not even the Premier league.
Start of November and not one Scottish side left playing in Europe, pretty depressing stuff.

 

[rudebhoy]

Money is only one of the reasons that Scotland can't compete in European or Nationwide football.
Personally, I think the coaching system must be the problem.
The 2 top Scottish teams in Europe this season. Celtic - 11, goals scored 4, total 2 points, Rangers - 20, goals scored 2, zero points.

Don't really think you can lump both clubs together in terms of coaching / tactics. Celtic have played well for long spells in every game, but have been let down by very poor finishing. They have had 83 shots on goal in 6 games but only managed to score 4 goals. That's an incredible stat. Even last night, away to the European champions, they had 8 shots on target to Real's 9. That's despite going 2-0 in the first 20 minutes to 2 incredibly harsh handball penalties.


Clinical finishing has been the difference. Unfortunately Celtic and Rangers can't afford to buy the type of player who gives you that. 20 years ago they were buying the likes of Sutton and Hartson for £6m each. Those type of players would be £20m-£30m these days which is totally out of reach even before you talk wages. We need to hope we get lucky in the bargain basement. Unfortunately the likes of Larsson don't come along very often.

Celtic's approach is gung-ho - we will attack, knowing we will leave ourselves open, basically "we are gonna score more than you" - it's great to watch, but isn't effective when you are up against technically better players as we have seen in the CL.

Rangers' approach has been much more conservative - basically park the bus away from home, and keep it tight at home. Doesn't work either, sooner or later you get picked off.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That would indicate that Ajax is simply a much bigger club! That is equivalent to comparing Rangers & Celtic with Scottish Championship teams (at best), at least wrt transfer funding - which is a massive part of Ajax's funding and business model. On the other hand, Celtic posted an overall, if small, profit in 2022 (but a loss in 2021) whereas Ajax has made large overall losses across the last 2 years - obviously both Covid affected though. Rangers are in a similar, if less healthy, position to Celtic and might even post a profit for 2022

You don’t have to look to the Scottish Championship for clubs with no, or very little, transfer fee budget. What player budget many have is for the wages of the players. These teams just look to bring on board a player that makes the difference, and that can be a single player or two. Then it’s all about the team, togetherness, and teamwork.

So for instance with StJ we have Melker Hallberg looking good in midfield, trying to fill the boots of the brilliant Ali McCann now doing well at PNE - and picked up after being released by Hibs. And such as Nicky Clark, picked up from Dundee Utd on a free and by his presence and footballing brain giving Stevie May a new lease of life. That’s all it needs for these clubs and StJ have gone from bottom of league not that many weeks ago to 7th.

How the heck StJ managed to win both cups season 2020/21 will forever be a magical mystery, mostly it was luck and great teamwork around a couple of key players that did it. But they will never ever be able to compete with the OF in the league. An occasional victory is the best they can look for.

Unfortunately for the OF in the Champions League even the greatest team spirit isn’t going to get you far - as Celtic‘s result against RM last night demonstrates. Another disappointing, if perhaps unsurprising (the score rather than the defeat), evening for Scottish football.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

StJ have Rangers on Sunday…I suspect things will return to normal…??

At least we have them at home…not that that normally makes much difference.

 

[chico]

It's a simple fact that Scottish teams will find it hard at this level however it isn't impossible. Look at Club Bruges not a bigger club than Celtic or even Rangers.

The key is qualifying regularly and if they could do that I think we would see progression. More Champions league money would improve the quality of the squads and regular participation would help greatly with what it takes to compete.
Remember Athletico Madrid finished bottom of their group, Juventus finished 3rd with just 3 points. It's a hard competition and nobody outside the elite are going to do well in it every year. Don't give up just yet.

 

[williamalex1]

Don't really think you can lump both clubs together in terms of coaching / tactics. Celtic have played well for long spells in every game, but have been let down by very poor finishing. They have had 83 shots on goal in 6 games but only managed to score 4 goals. That's an incredible stat. Even last night, away to the European champions, they had 8 shots on target to Real's 9. That's despite going 2-0 in the first 20 minutes to 2 incredibly harsh handball penalties.


Clinical finishing has been the difference. Unfortunately Celtic and Rangers can't afford to buy the type of player who gives you that. 20 years ago they were buying the likes of Sutton and Hartson for £6m each. Those type of players would be £20m-£30m these days which is totally out of reach even before you talk wages. We need to hope we get lucky in the bargain basement. Unfortunately the likes of Larsson don't come along very often.

Celtic's approach is gung-ho - we will attack, knowing we will leave ourselves open, basically "we are gonna score more than you" - it's great to watch, but isn't effective when you are up against technically better players as we have seen in the CL.

Rangers' approach has been much more conservative - basically park the bus away from home, and keep it tight at home. Doesn't work either, sooner or later you get picked off.

Celtic conceded 15 goals Rangers 22 goals, both teams have defence problems.

 

[rudebhoy]

It's a simple fact that Scottish teams will find it hard at this level however it isn't impossible. Look at Club Bruges not a bigger club than Celtic or even Rangers.

The key is qualifying regularly and if they could do that I think we would see progression. More Champions league money would improve the quality of the squads and regular participation would help greatly with what it takes to compete.
Remember Athletico Madrid finished bottom of their group, Juventus finished 3rd with just 3 points. It's a hard competition and nobody outside the elite are going to do well in it every year. Don't give up just yet.

Totally agree, it's been a brutal campaign for both teams, but lessons will have been learned. Regular qualification will see them improve, thanks in part to the extra 30-40m in income, also from the experience.

 

[rudebhoy]

Celtic conceded 15 goals Rangers 22 goals, both teams have defence problems.

Celtic's defensive problems revolve around their style of play - how many times have they been pressing teams and got caught on the break? The back four are all decent players, but they are getting outnumbered when teams break - Madrid almost scored twice in a matter of minutes from Celtic corners where the ball was played out and all of a sudden it was 3 defenders vs 5 attackers.

Rangers problems at the back come from a mixture of inviting teams onto them, and having to play inexperienced personnel (King and Sands) due to injuries and selling Bassey.

Both do have one thing in common - they are used to having the bulk of possession and territory in domestic games, it's a big change when you are having to defend the majority of the time. The likes of Taylor for Celtic and Tavenier for Rangers are great going forward, but struggle when under pressure from attacking teams.

 

[KenL]

Totally agree, it's been a brutal campaign for both teams, but lessons will have been learned. Regular qualification will see them improve, thanks in part to the extra 30-40m in income, also from the experience.

I hear Rangers will "only" get about 13 million. Celtic will get a little more for their 2 draws.

I really thought Celtic would have been 3rd at worst in that group but knew Rangers had zero chance.

 

[KenL]

Posting this before @SwingsitlikeHogan comes in to gloat.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-fans-anger-locals-after-28400419

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think it a bit rich that fans of either of the OF teams might accuse fans of the rest of Scottish football of ‘gloating’ over the travails of the OF.

The report of the behaviour of Celtic fans in Madrid saddens me, why would I gloat.

 

[KenL]

I think it a bit rich that fans of either of the OF teams might accuse fans of the rest of Scottish football of ‘gloating’ over the travails of the OF.

Good for you. ?

 

[rudebhoy]

Posting this before @SwingsitlikeHogan comes in to gloat.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-fans-anger-locals-after-28400419

Jeez, talk about scraping the barrel. No disorder, no arrests, it's hardly Manchester or George Square.

 

[rudebhoy]

I hear Rangers will "only" get about 13 million. Celtic will get a little more for their 2 draws.

Celtic get 29m euros, Rangers get 20m.

Celtic and Rangers UEFA earnings 2022/23
UEFA payout
Celtic Rangers
Participation fee €15.6m €15.6m
Prize money €1.9m £0
10-year coefficient €9.1m €2.3m
TV pool €3.6m €3.2m
Total €29.1m (£25.4m) €20.4m (£17.8m)

 

[KenL]

4

Celtic get 29m euros, Rangers get 20m.

4.5million per draw?

 

[rudebhoy]

4


4.5million per draw?

see my previous post, updated with the breakdown. Main difference is the 10-year coefficient.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Celtic get 29m euros, Rangers get 20m.

Celtic and Rangers UEFA earnings 2022/23
UEFA payout
Celtic Rangers
Participation fee €15.6m €15.6m
Prize money €1.9m £0
10-year coefficient €9.1m €2.3m
TV pool €3.6m €3.2m
Total €29.1m (£25.4m) €20.4m (£17.8m)

…and meanwhile and as a comparison St Johnstone’s most recent published accounts showed the company as having total financial reserves of £2m and typical annual turnover of £2m (Excluding money from transfers as only rarely does the club get decent money from transfers).

So while the OF may well highlight understandably and correctly that they are competing on an uneven playing field when in the champions league…most of Scottish football has to get on with doing the same year in, year out. Not complaining as it’s just as it is. And it’s difficult.

 

[KenL]

…and meanwhile and as a comparison St Johnstone’s most recent published accounts showed the company as having reserves of £2m and typical annual turnover of £2m.

You need more fans to turn up and watch, no?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You need more fans to turn up and watch, no?

Actually for the last home game - against Killie - the attendance was just under 4000. Not bad I thought given the population of Perth is under 50,000 (so could all easily fit in both Ibrox or Parhead)…btw the t/o figure of 2m was most recent, more typically it’s 3.5-4m…riches.

And the perspective check on crowd size. When St Johnstone played Dundee Utd in the 2014 Scottish Cup Final there were an estimated 15,000 StJohnstone supporters in the crowd…me, my lad and my mum were just three ?. That was the largest St Johnstone support at any match ever and anywhere in the history of the club.