Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Scotland...........we close the pubs for 9 months and we qualify for the Euros and win the Calcutta Cup.......just saying.
Captainron
Big Hitting, South African Sweary Person
Unbelievable that folk are calling for Owen Farrell to be dropped from the England team. England were terrible up front and the ball to the backs was often slow which gave the Scots loads of time to set up and defend. Conditions weren’t great either and Jones had a plan to put the Scottish back 3 under territorial pressure. Hardly the recipe for a flowing game.
He’s a guaranteed starter for the Lions tour.
I just don’t get it at all
He’s a guaranteed starter for the Lions tour.
I just don’t get it at all
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
The phenomenon that is Itoje aside, the Saracens contingent were well below par... IMHO that is due to lack of 'match sharpness'... Not sure/convinced that be returned through training sessions alone...
Grizzly
Well-known member
So, the case for him to be dropped - which, for the record, I am making as an intellectual argument rather than my own stated view (because I am unsure how I feel on the issue) - goes something like this...
1. Something is not working in England's game plan, and has not worked since they lost Scott Wiesmantel after the WC. There is a world of talent available, but too often the reliance on kicking for territory means that lots of it is wasted. Ollie Lawrence has four caps now, and has received four passes. Anthony Watson may not even have seen that many.
2. Whilst this is in part due to Eddie's game plan, the fact is that the fly half has to direct play, and should at the very minimum spot clear multi man overlaps. Farrell butchered three on Saturday, including one when Russell was in the bin. He did similar in the Autumn Nations Cup.
3. Sooner or later his own frustration at the state of his game is going to result in a red card - he could have been in the bin again on Saturday for tackling with his shoulder.
4. His kicking from the tee has been trending downward for two years now.
5. Sooner or later we need to see what some of the young guns can do - not just Ford, but Smith, Umaga, Joe Simmonds. Now is the time to blood them, and use Farrell either as an option at 12 or from the bench.
I think the major issue is that he can't be captain, kicker and 10. It isn't working. So either he goes to 12 permanently (in which case Henry Slade might have to be packed off to balance the back line) or Itoje takes the armband.
Grizzly
Well-known member
Miles on the clock? They have all played a lot of rugby, or missed a lot through serious injury, over the last four years. George wasn't THAT bad, and Daly is being asked to play in at best his third best position mind...
Big Billy is the worry. When we have two Curry's, Underhill, Wilson, Earl, Willis, Ludlam, Dombrandt and Sam Simmonds (hell, Zak Mercer has gone abroad because he can't even make a list of possibles!) it might be time to ask him to rediscover his form with Sarries.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
He is most definitely not a guaranteed starter for the Lions, he's not the best 10 in England never mind GB&I. He should concentrate on being a 12. Ford is far better for England IMO.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
He fits the Jones mould, big and huge but other than that he doesn't do much. It's exactly why Jones won't give Simmonds a run, he's not big enough for him despite being a fantastic player.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Scotland...........we close the pubs for 9 months and we qualify for the Euros and win the Calcutta Cup.......just saying.
Don't need to shut pubs to have the Calcutta Cup, we've had it for 3 out the last 4 6 nations
Grizzly
Well-known member
I think he's probably pretty close for the Lions, but I suspect it will be at 12. He fits the way Gatland wants to play.
Grizzly
Well-known member
Fully fit and in form, of course he would be in, but he is nowhere near and if we are honest, has not been for some time.
The argument for his inclusion is clear enough I guess - England's game is based on forward power and big hitters to create space for their playmakers. At present, we've gone from a squad featuring Manu, Ben Te'o, Joe Cocanasiga etc to one where we are perhaps one or two ball carriers light. So, Billy.
Is Simmons a better bet? He wouldn't be more than a bench player for me because he is another speed runner rather than a yard making tackle breaker. If we think Curry and Underhill are our 6,7 combo, then 8 would need to be Dombrandt or at a push Ben Earl. I do think it is underestimated how much playing in an Exeter back row with the likes of Don Armand, Sam Skinner, Dave Ewers, Joanne Vermeulen etc - big units all - makes a difference to his game!
Captainron
Big Hitting, South African Sweary Person
He will start for the Lions. Not sure which position though.
HeftyHacker
Well-known member
I'd agree with this. Not sure it'll be deserved but it will happen.
However, I've been of the opinion for a few years that Farrell just doesn't get the back line moving enough, he's too robotic and unable to adapt to play whats in front of him. He's fine behind a monster pack getting him clean, quick ball (sarries and england occasionally) and with big ball carriers getting him on the front foot, but I don't feel he can create something out of nothing like some of the other options for England and the lions.
Grizzly
Well-known member
As a second playmaker and defensive coordinator at 12, I get it.
I think he struggles to be a sole playmaker. Most of his top level rugby has been with either Ford or Andy Goode alongside him.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Yes, I should have said at Twickenham.
I shall never forget the last time that happened as I was in a packed Wiltshire clubhouse just having enjoyed a victory for team Scotland in the club's golf Home Internationals,
We did enjoy that day.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I was still living at home and watched the match with my mum (though she'd have been flitting between living room and kitchen)...my dad wasn't that bothered about sport and he'd most likely have been in the garage building furniture - so the win last weekend was for me a lovely little time-machine back to simpler days
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
I actually believe he's hugely over rated as a 10, I think England have at least 3 better options than him. He's a safe pair of hands when it's working up front but when not he's lost. There's a reason why on the 2017 Lions tour we lost with him at 10 on test 1 and won then drew with Sexton at 10
Grizzly
Well-known member
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
England can't play as badly today can th....oh, wait a minute....
paddyc
Challenge Tour Pro
Farrell having a poor and indisciplined game today. Have to question whether on form he deserves to be in the side!
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
I was almost hoping he'd get binned for that tackle a few minutes ago.
The Guy's a thug and, at the moment, he's not playing particularly well
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