Remove debris off the green?

[mikseymono]

Hi Team.....so yesterday, in strokeplay comp, I found myself 5ft off the green under an acorn tree. There were lots of little twigs and acorns inbetween my ball and the fringe of the green and a couple on the green. My main concern though was as I was going to putt the ball I would be hitting quite a few of these on the way to the hole.

So, question is am I allowed to remove these items before I putt? Remember most of the debris is not on the green but on and around the fringe. My gut answer is that I am not allowed and would be penalised two shots. I was not sure at the time, was -1 at the time after 6 and as my playing partner 'rules hitler' was in a grumpy mood after his poor start and can get very aggressive I just played the balls as it lied amongst the debris.

Thanks in advance.

M

 

[rulefan]

Yes, you are allowed to remove this debris from the green or anywhere else for that matter.
There is an exception though.
The 'debris' can either be loose impediments (natural objects like leaves) or obstructions (artificial objects like fag ends). You may move the latter from anywhere but you cannot move the former if they are in the same bunker or water hazard as your ball.

You may be getting mixed up with an odd situation. Sand is a loose impediment only when it is on the green. But not when on the fringe or elsewhere. So if you have to putt through sand you may only move that sand which is on the green, wherever your ball is.

However there is a twist. If your ball is already on the fringe (say) and another player plays from the bunker, depositing sand on the fringe in front of your ball, you may brush it out of the way as you are entitled to the lie and line of play you had when your ball first arrived on the spot.

 

[rosecott]

23-1. Relief
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard,any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

Perhaps you may be confusing your situation with this part of the definition of loose impediments:

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green,but not elsewhere.

 

[mikseymono]

Thanks for the replies so far................so I am allowed to move the debris if it is not on the green in the line of my putt. I presume, I can pick or brush away these little acorns and twigs that are off the green.

What is the specific rule on this?

M

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for the replies so far................so I am allowed to move the debris if it is not on the green in the line of my putt. I presume, I can pick or brush away these little acorns and twigs that are off the green.

What is the specific rule on this?

M

Rulefan's explanation is comprehensive. Yes you may remove the debris whether it comprises natural objects like leaves (loose impediments) or artificial ones like crisp packets (movable obstructions). Best to pick them up when off the green rather than brush them away as you might also brush away sand or soil which are not loose impediments except on the green.

The rules are 23-1 as mentioned above for loose impediments and 24-1 for movable obstructions.

By the way, you only have a line of putt when your ball is lying on the green but that's not relevant to your question.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks for the replies so far................so I am allowed to move the debris if it is not on the green in the line of my putt. I presume, I can pick or brush away these little acorns and twigs that are off the green.

What is the specific rule on this?

M

And this Decision

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-13,d13-2-8.5

 

[atticusfinch]

Just a passing pedantic thought: to avoid confusion it is a good idea to use the terms in the rules rather than others that are not defined, like debris. You identified it as twigs and the like, so loose impediment would be the correct term. :blah:

 

[mikseymono]

Rulefan's explanation is comprehensive. Yes you may remove the debris whether it comprises natural objects like leaves (loose impediments) or artificial ones like crisp packets (movable obstructions). Best to pick them up when off the green rather than brush them away as you might also brush away sand or soil which are not loose impediments except on the green.

The rules are 23-1 as mentioned above for loose impediments and 24-1 for movable obstructions.

By the way, you only have a line of putt when your ball is lying on the green but that's not relevant to your question.

Yes.."line of putt"....that is a strange one...if you have a 30 ft putt right on the edge of the green..you have a line of putt....30 ft and 3 inches (just off it on the fringe) you have NO line of putt...though surely you are putting on the same line if ever so slightly firmer..........

M
yes...line of putt

 

[rulefan]

Yes.."line of putt"....that is a strange one...if you have a 30 ft putt right on the edge of the green..you have a line of putt....30 ft and 3 inches (just off it on the fringe) you have NO line of putt...though surely you are putting on the same line if ever so slightly firmer..........

M
yes...line of putt

You may not (and probably won't) be using a putter if you are off the putting green. But almost certainly will if you are on.

 

[rulie]

You may not (and probably won't) be using a putter if you are off the putting green. But almost certainly will if you are on.

Whether a putter is used or not is irrelevant to having a line of putt. As noted above, "line of putt" only exists if the ball lies on the putting green - I've seen numerous players use wedges from one part of the same putting green to another - they still have a line of putt.

 

[rulefan]

Whether a putter is used or not is irrelevant to having a line of putt. As noted above, "line of putt" only exists if the ball lies on the putting green - I've seen numerous players use wedges from one part of the same putting green to another - they still have a line of putt.

I wasn't trying to explain it technically, simply responding to the extreme example.

Incidentally, I have only just noticed that the line of play has a vertical dimension, whereas the line of putt does not.
How does that affect your wedge shot?

 

[mikseymono]

You may not (and probably won't) be using a putter if you are off the putting green. But almost certainly will if you are on.

But you see this is my point...I do tend to use a putter when just off....up to about 4ft.....our greens tend to have nice wide flat aprons......on other courses/terrains that severely slope away...yes, I'll get out my wedge...but I trust my putter to get it there or there abouts on ours....hence the question about debris etc.

Thanks,

M

 

[rulie]

I wasn't trying to explain it technically, simply responding to the extreme example.

Incidentally, I have only just noticed that the line of play has a vertical dimension, whereas the line of putt does not.
How does that affect your wedge shot?

Not at all.

 

[rulefan]

Not at all.

I was hoping for more
What do think the reasoning was?

 

[rulie]

I was hoping for more
What do think the reasoning was?

Best to ask the R&A.

 

[3offTheTee]

Best to ask the R&A.

Is a great answer as I expect Rulefan knew the correct answer!

 

[PhilTheFragger]

what about wormcasts? they are soil. could be sandy soil, or are we into burrowing animal territory here?

asking for a friend

 

[chrisd]

asking for a friend

You've got a friend??

 

[PhilTheFragger]

You've got a friend??

Rumbled darn 🙃

So wormcasts .........on the green ....

 

[duncan mackie]

what about wormcasts? they are soil. could be sandy soil, or are we into burrowing animal territory here?

asking for a friend

Wormcasts are specifically stated to be a loose impediment.