Matchplay - Can I give a half after winning the hole

evemccc

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There was no discussion at all as we played the hole on the number of shots we had each played, and as mentioned I did not mention at any point prior to or during playing the hole that my opponent had a shot. Even after he had putted to 18" nothing was said between us, and nothing was said prior to or as I holed my 10footer. He just walked in and picked up his marker. I looked at him and said 'you had a shot!'. By his thoughts he didn't concede the hole to me, he thought he'd lost it.

I guess that I did what I did as I was feeling a little guilty not conceding his 18" putt (yes I know...why???) before I putted or indeed as I walked to the hole having holed my putt. And indeed I most probably would have conceded his putt for a half had he not jumped in so quickly.

Anyway - need to go back through the responses as I'm thinking that from what @Colin L has said that I could do what I did as neither of us knew that I couldn't.

Guilt about not giving holes is an interesting one…is it gentlemanly to do so, and therefore not gentlemanly to not do so?

I know that I beat a very good player in a HCAP matchplay K/O last year and on a hole that I won, I did so because he was visibly put-out that I didn’t give him a putt….so much so that I’m convinced he was thinking about it whilst over the not-given putt, and then promptly missed it…
 

Steven Rules

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I once played as a single player in a matchplay ko against a pair. We were being held up by a group in front on every hole so I suggested that we concede the next two holes, one each to each other so we could skip ahead of the group in front. I'm pretty sure that I later read that we weren't allowed to do this? (It was some time back)

Did I read it right?
A player and opponent are not allowed to agree to concede holes to each other for the purpose of shortening the match. If they do so knowing this is not allowed, they are disqualified. (3.2b(1))
 

salfordlad

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A player and opponent are not allowed to agree to concede holes to each other for the purpose of shortening the match. If they do so knowing this is not allowed, they are disqualified. (3.2b(1))
This becomes an interesting question if the purpose is not about shortening the match. For example, if the players skip a few holes because of a logjam of slow groups but return to them after completing the 18th - ie still play the full complement but not in correct order. The USGA has advised there is no answer in the Rules to what to do if holes in match play are played out of order - it is entirely up to the Committee to decide what to do.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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I'm saying the rule doesn't particularly matter, if you're desperate to help out your opponent in this way and he agrees, then who is going to know? It cant be considered cheating if both parties in a one-on-one match agree to it as nobody is being cheated.
I think you miss my point. There are some circumstances when the actual result does matter - not just who wins and who loses.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Guilt about not giving holes is an interesting one…is it gentlemanly to do so, and therefore not gentlemanly to not do so?

I know that I beat a very good player in a HCAP matchplay K/O last year and on a hole that I won, I did so because he was visibly put-out that I didn’t give him a putt….so much so that I’m convinced he was thinking about it whilst over the not-given putt, and then promptly missed it…
Did it myself in an earlier round of the same comp as yesterday. I had fought back from 4 dwn to be 1dwn playing the last. My opponent had a putt to half the hole and so win the match. It was 18" (maybe even a tad less). I did not concede it. He horseshoed out. I won up the 1st extra hole.

I'm not one for doing nice in matchplay - and that's why over the decades of comps I've actually been quite successful in winning more than my fair share. There was just something about the combination of circumstances yesterday that gave me pause to reflect as I walked off the green and do what I did. Being 4 up and about to go 5 up with 7 to play had an input - but it wasn't the only thing. I did however chastise myself and question my sanity as we walked down the next fairway after teeing off.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan

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But not in your circumstance presumably. So who cares?
The point is that any rule must surely be written to cover as many scenarios as possible, otherwise if there were variants of a relatively simple rule, there could be endless confusion over what variant of a rule is applicable to any specific scenario. In my situation yesterday, what I did indeed have no wider impact - but in other scenarios it could have or indeed would have.

I now know better. Though I doubt the exact same situation will ever arise for me again.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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It doesn't apply because that is not what happened. First one player lifted their ball in play (why is not relevant, no rule allowed it) then the same player conceded the hole (according to the OP). But the other player, incorrectly under the rules, offered to alter the hole result, and the players (unaware the rules did not permit this) agreed a different result for the hole. Ultimately, Rule 20.1b(1) guides here, the agreed hole result based on a misapplication of the rules remains the hole result. Hopefully, some useful lessons learned here.
For arguments sake - let's say my opponent had picked up his marker but before he said a word (either explicitly or implicitly accepting that he'd lost the hole) I told him that he had a shot. The fact is that I have won the hole as he has picked up his marker and not holed out or had his putt conceded by me. But could I have let him replace his marker at no penalty for him to putt for a half.
 
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Orikoru

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The point is that any rule must surely be written to cover as many scenarios as possible, otherwise if there were variants of a relatively simple rule, there could be endless confusion over what variant of a rule is applicable to any specific scenario. In my situation yesterday, what I did indeed have no wider impact - but in other scenarios it could have or indeed would have.

I now know better. Though I doubt the exact same situation will ever arise for me again.
Are we talking at crossed purposes here? I never said the rule was silly or shouldn't exist or whatever. (Although I do often say things like that. 😂) Just that in your scenario you could have ignored it anyway and if nobody knows other than you and the opponent then it does no harm. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

rulie

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Are we talking at crossed purposes here? I never said the rule was silly or shouldn't exist or whatever. (Although I do often say things like that. 😂) Just that in your scenario you could have ignored it anyway and if nobody knows other than you and the opponent then it does no harm. 🤷🏻‍♂️
If players agree to waive a Rule they know applies, or fail to apply a penalty they know applies, both players are disqualified. Players are expected to act with integrity.
 

rulie

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For arguments sake - let's say my opponent had picked up his marker but before he said a word (either explicitly or implicitly accepting that he'd lost the hole) I told him that he had a shot. The fact is that I have won the hole as he has picked up his marker and not holed out or had his putt conceded by me. But could I have let him replace his marker at no penalty for him to putt for a half.
He picked up his ball marker, it's a breach of Rule 9.7 and a penalty applies. See post above about integrity.
 

Orikoru

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If players agree to waive a Rule they know applies, or fail to apply a penalty they know applies, both players are disqualified. Players are expected to act with integrity.
If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make a sound?

I get the whole integrity of rules thing in a stroke play comp, protect the field and all that, but in a one on one matchplay if you both turn a blind eye to something, who loses out? There are some rules you can overlook in matchplay though aren't there?? I've definitely heard that before so this isn't consistent.
 

Colin L

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If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make a sound?

I get the whole integrity of rules thing in a stroke play comp, protect the field and all that, but in a one on one matchplay if you both turn a blind eye to something, who loses out? There are some rules you can overlook in matchplay though aren't there?? I've definitely heard that before so this isn't consistent.
You can indeed ignore your opponent's breach of a rule provided he is unaware that he has breached it. If you both knowingly ignore it, you can both be penalised by DQ for doing so. It's obviously not a matter of protecting a field, but think of it as protecting the integrity of the game of golf.
 

Orikoru

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You can indeed ignore your opponent's breach of a rule provided he is unaware that he has breached it. If you both knowingly ignore it, you can both be penalised by DQ for doing so. It's obviously not a matter of protecting a field, but think of it as protecting the integrity of the game of golf.
That's hilarious. How do I know if he's unaware or not? I can't ask him because then he'll definitely be aware! It's Schrödinger's golf ruling. 😂
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make a sound?

I get the whole integrity of rules thing in a stroke play comp, protect the field and all that, but in a one on one matchplay if you both turn a blind eye to something, who loses out? There are some rules you can overlook in matchplay though aren't there?? I've definitely heard that before so this isn't consistent.
If the actual result of a match goes towards the final standings in a table then a match that should have finished, say, 6&5 but due to leniency on part of the winner instead finished 4&3, that difference in the result could find the loser winning the league by a margin of 1hole from the team/player that finds itself in 2nd.

The instances of where what happened with me will be so rare that a separate rule or variation on a ruling to cover it just isn‘t worth it, plus a variation would inevitable be misinterpreted or misrepresented, so don’t have one - in this instance we always play to the same rule regardless of the matchplay format or scenario. I just didn’t know the rule, thinking that as it was matchplay then I could pretty much do whatever I liked…until retrospectively I have thought about it and now being advised of and understanding the rule.
 

Colin L

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That's hilarious. How do I know if he's unaware or not? I can't ask him because then he'll definitely be aware! It's Schrödinger's golf ruling. 😂
Don't over-complicate matters. If he says nothing he is, as far as you are concerned, unaware. You then have a choice of saying nothing, telling him with the intention that a penalty is applied or telling him of the breach but also that you are ignoring it.
 

rulie

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If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear, does it make a sound?

I get the whole integrity of rules thing in a stroke play comp, protect the field and all that, but in a one on one matchplay if you both turn a blind eye to something, who loses out? There are some rules you can overlook in matchplay though aren't there?? I've definitely heard that before so this isn't consistent.
You also get to test or show your own integrity, and have to live with it (or without it).
 

salfordlad

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For arguments sake - let's say my opponent had picked up his marker but before he said a word (either explicitly or implicitly accepting that he'd lost the hole) I told him that he had a shot. The fact is that I have won the hole as he has picked up his marker and not holed out or had his putt conceded by me. But could I have let him replace his marker at no penalty for him to putt for a half.
Yes. This is the substance of the new 3.2d(4)/1. See the first bullet point which gets precisely to this issue. Rulie's post #51 is not correct if you decide to just tell the player that he has made an error but you are not imposing the penalty - in this case, the player must replace the ball and the hole continues.
 
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