9.4.b Deliberately lifting ball. I.e stopping the ball

[3offTheTee]

We have a green side bunker at the top of a steep slope on a par 3. I had been at the bottom of the slope with my drive and ended up in the bunker short of the green with my 2nd. I hit out of the bunker, it hit the side and started to roll back to the bottom. having problems with my knee I was not going down again and was going to play again from the bunker playing 4.

I deliberately stopped the ball which was practical. I am sure Orikuru would agree!

Should I have been penalised 1 shot?

If so how should I then complete the hole? It did not matter as it was a Stableford but would have been different in a Medal.

 

[rulie]

Rule 9.4b only applies to a ball at rest. You need to look at Rule 11.2 for a ball in motion deliberately deflected or stopped by a person. You would have been penalized two strokes and need to play your next stroke from the where ball would have come to rest.

 

[backwoodsman]

Rule 11.2 applies. That is, you get the general penalty (2 shots or loss of hole, depending on format) and you have to estimate where the ball would have stopped and then play from there. Playing from where you stopped it is playing from a wrong place.
Edit. Beaten to it by Rulie posting while I was typing

 

[3offTheTee]

Rule 11.2 applies. That is, you get the general penalty (2 shots or loss of hole, depending on format) and you have to estimate where the ball would have stopped and then play from there. Playing from where you stopped it is playing from a wrong place.
Edit. Beaten to it by Rulie posting while I was typing

I did not state I was going to play from where I stopped the ball. I stated that under a penalty of 1 shot I was going to play from the bunker again.

However I appreciate both your comments and what I did was wrong

 

[Lord Tyrion]

If @3offTheTee is effectively retaking his shot, under a 1 shot penalty, then why go through the process of waiting for the ball to come to rest? That makes no sense. He has already made the decision to take the penalty.

 

[rulie]

There is no one stroke penalty for this player's actions. The Rules say that it is two strokes and he must play it from where it would have come to rest. If he wanted to play it again from where he had made his last stroke, he would incur a penalty of three strokes - two for deliberately stopping/deflecting his ball in motion and one for stroke and distance. It's what the Rules say.

 

[backwoodsman]

/I did not state I was going to play from where I stopped the ball. I stated that under a penalty of 1 shot I was going to play from the bunker again.

However I appreciate both your comments and what I did was wrong

Sorry - slight misinterpretation on my part. (Hadn't realised you meant the ball was rolling to the "bottom of the slope" - thought you meant "bottom of the bunker")

In the circumstances, in line with what Rulie has clarified, if you didn't fancy walking down the slopes again - and wanted to take S&D from the bunker, without incurring the 2 stroke penalty, the way would have been to let the ball come to rest, then to ask a PP if they'd kindly fetch it for you. Or (perhaps more convenient?), play S&D using a different ball and retrieve the original ball later. Mind, if it was only a casual game, I'd have probably done the same as you.

 

[3offTheTee]

Sorry - slight misinterpretation on my part. (Hadn't realised you meant the ball was rolling to the "bottom of the slope" - thought you meant "bottom of the bunker")

In the circumstances, in line with what Rulie has clarified, if you didn't fancy walking down the slopes again - and wanted to take S&D from the bunker, without incurring the 2 stroke penalty, the way would have been to let the ball come to rest, then to ask a PP if they'd kindly fetch it for you. Or (perhaps more convenient?), play S&D using a different ball and retrieve the original ball later. Mind, if it was only a casual game, I'd have probably done the same as you.

Thanks.
Are you saying that I could have let the ball roll down and then played under a 1 shot penalty in the bunker. this seems far more practical. It was not that I did not fancy walking back down the hill, with advanced arthritis in my knee it was not practical.

Suppose from what you say I could have just left the ball. I know the next question will be positively identification!!

 

[backwoodsman]

Thanks.
Are you saying that I could have let the ball roll down and then played under a 1 shot penalty in the bunker. this seems far more practical. It was not that I did not fancy walking back down the hill, with advanced arthritis in my knee it was not practical.

Suppose from what you say I could have just left the ball. I know the next question will

Sorry again - its me confusing practicality with desire

Yes - that's what is possible. After any shot, you always have the option of playing again under stroke & and distance - for no more reason than that's what you want to do. And you don't have to use the original ball. The only sin you committed was to take the seemingly obvious action of rescuing your ball as it rolled on its way past you.

As to positive identification, as long as you know it was your ball that you hit in the bunker, and you saw where it went, then you don't need to go & identify it again. (In fact, you don't even need to find or identify it in order to play S&D).

 

[3offTheTee]

Sorry again - its me confusing practicality with desire

Yes - that's what is possible. After any shot, you always have the option of playing again under stroke & and distance - for no more reason than that's what you want to do. And you don't have to use the original ball. The only sin you committed was to take the seemingly obvious action of rescuing your ball as it rolled on its way past you.

As to positive identification, as long as you know it was your ball that you hit in the bunker, and you saw where it went, then you don't need to go & identify it again. (In fact, you don't even need to find or identify it in order to play S&D).

BW

Thanks once again
I said in my original post that I stopped the ball which was practical. I knew it was wrong..

However I really appreciate your help and also Rulie. If anything has been missed I am sure somebody will let us know!

 

[3offTheTee]

There is no one stroke penalty for this player's actions. The Rules say that it is two strokes and he must play it from where it would have come to rest. If he wanted to play it again from where he had made his last stroke, he would incur a penalty of three strokes - two for deliberately stopping/deflecting his ball in motion and one for stroke and distance. It's what the Rules say.

Still wearing a practical hat. If when I saw the ball was about to go down the hill I stated I was going to take stroke and distance what would have been the position ? Something similar could happen with a ball rolling back into the water. not worried about the ball cost, more as I said initially the practicality.

 

[rulie]

Still wearing a practical hat. If when I saw the ball was about to go down the hill I stated I was going to take stroke and distance what would have been the position ? Something similar could happen with a ball rolling back into the water. not worried about the ball cost, more as I said initially the practicality.

Just leave the ball in motion alone. It is different than a ball rolling into the penalty area - if it's clear you're going to take penalty area relief and the ball won't roll out of the penalty area, it's fine to stop it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Isn’t this what Micklson did on the green.?
he stopped his putt and took S&D but sure he never got a 3 stroke penalty.
I remember there was a question asked over the rule!

 

[rulie]

Isn’t this what Micklson did on the green.?
he stopped his putt and took S&D but sure he never got a 3 stroke penalty.
I remember there was a question asked over the rule!

The Rules have changed since then, particularly regarding multiple penalties and "intevrening events".

 

[Steven Rules]

Isn’t this what Micklson did on the green.?
he stopped his putt and took S&D but sure he never got a 3 stroke penalty.
I remember there was a question asked over the rule!

If we are thinking of the same incident, it was the 2018 US Open. He played a moving ball and received a two stroke penalty. He probably would have scored one stroke less on the hole (but definitely would have been no worse off and certainly wouldn't have attracted all the controversy) if he had let the original ball come to rest and then taken stroke and distance.

 

[clubchamp98]

If we are thinking of the same incident, it was the 2018 US Open. He played a moving ball and received a two stroke penalty. He probably would have scored one stroke less on the hole (but definitely would have been no worse off and certainly wouldn't have attracted all the controversy) if he had let the original ball come to rest and then taken stroke and distance.

Right I remember now.
He didn’t take S&D that’s what the debate was about.
thank you.

 

[salfordlad]

Right I remember now.
He didn’t take S&D that’s what the debate was about.
thank you.

It was also about whether it merited DQ, and lead to a change in Rule 1.2, adding a new category of Serious Breach that enables a Committee to DQ.

 

[3offTheTee]

I asked a referee at our Club yesterday. My question was: If I hit the ball out of the bunker and it starts to roll down a hill and before passing me I state I am playing stoke and distance would it be OK. he said 2 + 1 penalty for stopping a moving ball. Not practical in my opinion.

I then stated that if I did not stop the ball could I play another and his comment was “the ball may be lost and I would have to identify before taking stroke and distance from the banker”.

This is contrary to what was quoted on here. See Post 9

Will somebody please clarify. I saw the ball go down and the reason I do not want to collect it as I have severe arthritis in my knee.

 

[rulie]

Imo, the referee at your club has overlooked Rule 18.1, "At any time, a player may take stroke and distance.....". In doing so, the player may use the original ball or another ball. Just don't stop or deflect the original ball.

 

[Steven Rules]

Imo, the referee at your club has overlooked Rule 18.1, "At any time, a player may take stroke and distance.....". In doing so, the player may use the original ball or another ball. Just don't stop or deflect the original ball.

Agreed. The ruling that the ball must be identified before taking stroke and distance is a little "curious". In fact, it seems downright wrong.