Didn't know my ball had been marked.

[curious golfer]

I played a par comp a few days ago. Hit my fourth shot (On a par four where I was receiving a shot) out a green side bunker, lot of sand into my face, looked away then raked up. Went and putted out. Missed my first and tapped in for the six, which was a loss. Chap I was playing with then informs me, that he'd marked my ball as it was on his line. I realised that I'd played from the wrong spot. I was not looking like being anywhere near the prizes, but just in case, I asked him to replace the ball at his best estimation of where the marker had been (He'd picked it up by this point.) and I putted out again. I two putted once more and just put a six down on my card as either was a loss in the par comp, but if anyone could inform me of what exact procedures should've been, I'd be grateful.

 

[rulefan]

9.6 Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence​

If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball at rest:
There is no penalty, and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated)

However

9.6/3 – Player Learns That Ball Moved After Stroke Made​

If it is not known or virtually certain that the player’s ball has been moved by an outside influence, the player must play the ball as it lies. If information that the ball was in fact moved by an outside influence only becomes known to the player after the ball has been played, the player did not play from a wrong place because this knowledge did not exist when the player made the stroke.

 

[Steven Rules]

Rulefan beat me to it but I would add that the other player should not have marked and lifted your ball in the first place without your authorisation. (Rule 14.1b) But no penalty to any player as a result of this misdemeanour.

 

[salfordlad]

The ruling above is incorrect. This is not a 9.6/3 situation, it is a 9.6/4 situation. When the other player marked and lifted the ball and set it aside that ball was no longer in play. A ball no longer in play is a wrong ball, so when it was played it was played as a wrong ball, not from a wrong place. But as the player was unaware of this, there is no penalty but the player is required to correct the mistake providing it is timely to do so - in stroke play this means before the player begins another hole. In this case, it was timely to correct, so the player proceeded correctly to have the ball returned to the estimated position and complete the hole.

 

[IanM]

Defer to more knowledgeable folk than I, but 9.6 wording is so specific I thought that was spot on.

The other player cannot "set aside" someone else's ball. Not sure I've ever heard that expression. But they can conceed a putt in matchplay

Cue the Rules Dudes. I think that's Level 3 though

 

[rulefan]

The ruling above is incorrect. This is not a 9.6/3 situation, it is a 9.6/4 situation. When the other player marked and lifted the ball and set it aside that ball was no longer in play. A ball no longer in play is a wrong ball, so when it was played it was played as a wrong ball, not from a wrong place. But as the player was unaware of this, there is no penalty but the player is required to correct the mistake providing it is timely to do so - in stroke play this means before the player begins another hole. In this case, it was timely to correct, so the player proceeded correctly to have the ball returned to the estimated position and complete the hole.

9.6/4 If a player discovers, after playing their ball, that it had been moved onto the course by an outside influence after the ball had come to rest out of bounds,

But the ball wasn't ever out of bounds

 

[rulie]

Defer to more knowledgeable folk than I, but 9.6 wording is so specific I thought that was spot on.

The other player cannot "set aside" someone else's ball. Not sure I've ever heard that expression. But they can conceed a putt in matchplay

Cue the Rules Dudes. I think that's Level 3 though

There are two Rules involved here - Rule 14.1b (Who May Lift Ball) and Rule 9.6 (Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence). In singles stroke play, all players are outside influences to each other, which, imo, means that the outside influence can mark and lift another player's ball without permission or penalty. After marking and lifting, the outside influence can put the ball down on the green ("set it aside") or give it to the player.

 

[IanM]

Yes, it was "set aside" I've not heard used before. It isn't in the Rules is it? Yep, mark it and do something with it!

 

[salfordlad]

9.6/4 If a player discovers, after playing their ball, that it had been moved onto the course by an outside influence after the ball had come to rest out of bounds,

But the ball wasn't ever out of bounds

9.6/3 and 9.6/4 are important Clarifications relating to contact between an outside influence and your ball. The first deals with a 'wrong place' scenario, the second with a 'wrong ball' scenario. And wrong ball scenarios are not limited to when a ball goes OOB.

9.6/3 is about when an outside influence moves your ball in play, resulting in your ball in play being in a wrong place. So if you play that ball without awareness (KVC) it has been moved, you are required to play on without correction and there is no penalty for the wrong place.

9.6/4 is about when an outside influence, without your knowledge, alters the position of your ball that is either a) already no longer in play (eg tosses it back on the course from OOB) or b) deliberately lifts your ball in play (taking your ball out of play) and puts it somewhere on the course other than the original spot. In each case, your ball is no longer in play and is, therefore, a wrong ball. So if you play that ball from where it lies without awareness of it's status, you have played a wrong ball but do not get a penalty and must correct if you become aware of the facts in a timely way.

For Ian, as Rulie notes, 'set aside' just means put the ball down out of the way after marking - it is not a defined term for the purposes of the Rules.

 

[rulie]

I have an unanswered question about an outside influence moving a ball in play and that outside influence attempting to "replace" that ball. Did the outside influence ever satisfy the definition of "replace", ie, "To place a ball by setting it down by hand and letting it go, with the intent for it to be in play".
For example, if a spectator picks up a player's ball and then, realizing their error, tosses it back near where it had been, has the ball been "replaced"? And how should the player then proceed in order to be in compliance with the Rules?

 

[salfordlad]

I have an unanswered question about an outside influence moving a ball in play and that outside influence attempting to "replace" that ball. Did the outside influence ever satisfy the definition of "replace", ie, "To place a ball by setting it down by hand and letting it go, with the intent for it to be in play".
For example, if a spectator picks up a player's ball and then, realizing their error, tosses it back near where it had been, has the ball been "replaced"? And how should the player then proceed in order to be in compliance with the Rules?

I have a USGA discussion of these issues, I can access it and post later when I return home.

 

[Steven Rules]

I have in the back of my mind that there was an old Decision covering pretty much this exact scenario but I am away from home this Easter so can't check any time soon to see if my memory is correct.

 

[Colin L]

9.6/4 is about when an outside influence, without your knowledge, alters the position of your ball that is either a) already no longer in play (eg tosses it back on the course from OOB) or b) deliberately lifts your ball in play (taking your ball out of play) and puts it somewhere on the course other than the original spot.

I cannot see anything in 9.6/4 that suggests it is about anything other than a ball which had come to rest out of bounds and then move on to the course by an outside influence. In the absence of anything else, the first sentence appears to confine the entire Clarification to that situation. It is not, as far as I can see, about a ball being moved by an outside influence when it had been at rest on the course. What am I missing that supports b)?

Also, I can't find any textual confirmation that a ball which has been picked up by an outside influence and moved to another part of the course has been "lifted" and is out of play. How do we know that the human who picks up your ball is any different in terms of their status as an outside influence than an animal? Or do we have to take that a dog who picks your ball up has "lifted" your ball in the sense of the rules and that if it then spat it out on the course it is out of play?

Looking for enlightenment!

 

[Steven Rules]

In singles stroke play, all players are outside influences to each other, which, imo, means that the outside influence can mark and lift another player's ball without permission or penalty.

I adopt a literal interpretation of 14.1b. The Rule states that anybody other than the player (including an outside influence) requires the player’s permission to mark and lift the player’s ball. However - sigh - there is no penalty if an outside influence marks and lifts the player’s ball without the player’s permission.

 

[rulefan]

I have in the back of my mind that there was an old Decision covering pretty much this exact scenario but I am away from home this Easter so can't check any time soon to see if my memory is correct.

I have the old book to hand. Any idea what Rule it would have been under?

Edit:
18-1/3 Player Unaware Ball Moved by Outside Agency Does Not Replace Ball ?
15-3b/3 Set Aside

 

[Steven Rules]

Nope. Possibly wrong place or wrong ball. While laborious, the index is probably the best place to start searching.

 

[salfordlad]

These are all good questions posed above by the OP, Rulie and Colin. Believe me, I've been there too, but have had an opportunity to work through these issues face to face and in written form with RB officials. Even better, I can provide/reference USGA words (below) where they have put significant and valuable explanation of these complex "lifted" versus "moved" themes in a public place, their FB Rules page.

First the headline questions: a) if ANY person deliberately picks up a ball in play on the course, is that ball "lifted" for the purposes of the Rules (meaning no longer in play) or merely "moved" (meaning in a wrong place)? Answer: it is treated by the Rules as "lifted" regardless of the motivations of the person doing the deliberate pick up.
b) if that same person or another person returns the lifted ball to the course, is that ball back in play? Answer: it depends - see the detail below.

Question: Player A and Player B are fellow competitors (EDIT: not partners) in a stroke play competition. Player A hits out of a green side bunker to within 2 feet of the hole and while Player A is raking the bunker, Player B marks Player A’s ball, picks it up, and gently tosses it somewhere else on the green to get It it out of the way. Player A did not know this was happening. Is Player A’s ball still in play or is it now a wrong ball?

USGA RESPONSE

It's a wrong ball. The ball was lifted, which means it was taken out of play and it was not put back into play.

However, since A was unaware of this, A is not penalized for playing a wrong ball. If this information comes to light before the player starts the next hole, the mistake must be corrected by playing replacing the ball on the correct spot (thus putting it back into play in the correct place) and finishing out the hole. If this is not discovered until after the player has started the next hole then the score with the wrong ball stands.

An old Decision covered this situation exactly (15-3b/3) and that ruling still stands, but is now covered by the premise of Interpretation 9.6/4.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/permalink/4802225416499783/

Question: Thanks to the USGA for answering my previous question clarifying that a player’s ball lifted from the course by an Outside Influence is in fact out of play.

My follow up questions:

Can an Outside Influence return the ball to the course and put the player’s ball back in play?

If so, is the intent of the Outside Influence the key to whether the ball is back in play similar to when a player returns a ball to the course by replacing or dropping?

Does it matter if the Outside Influence who returns the ball to the course is or is not the person who lifted it?

USGA RESPONSE

1. Outside influences do "lift" golf balls and when they do those balls are taken out of play per the definition of in play. This is why we have both lift and moved in Rule 9.6. If it were not possible for an outside influence to lift a ball, it would say so and if there were an exception that balls lifted without authority were still in play, we would have to say so.

2. It is important to understand that outside influence is a LARGE category of people and things, and while we want everything in a category to be treated the same, it isn't possible. For example: a loose impediment or movable obstruction are clearly not capable of lifting a ball and taking it out of play. Those outside influences could only be responsible for movement. Likewise with animals, (while we could argue may or may not have intent depending on the animal), as far as the Rules are concerned we do not apply intent to animal actions and therefore they are only responsible for movement. But when the outside influence is another player or a person, it is possible to apply intent to the action. And yes, we apply intent both to the lifting and potential replacement (or lack thereof).

3. Example 1: In a group of 3, player A hits from a deep bunker and cannot see the ball on the putting green. It is in player B's line of play. Player C, without asking and without A's knowledge marks, lifts, waits for B to putt and then replaces the ball on the same spot intending to allow A to play the ball from that spot or mark and lift as desired. That ball was taken out of play and put back into play by an outside influence who wasn’t authorized to lift and the ball could be played without penalty by A.

4. Example 2: Using the scenario above, but instead of putting the ball back, player C tosses the ball aside, intending to give it to A and let him know to replace it back in front of the ball-marker. That ball was not put back into play and if C forgets to tell A, and A goes and plays it he has technically played a wrong ball. While interpretations are not intended to be Rule making, 9.6/4 covers a similar situation where a player unknowingly plays a wrong ball through the actions of an outside influence and we do not apply a penalty in that case, but may or may not need to correct. Note that 9.6/3 only covers a ball "moved" by an outside influence which is not what has happened in this scenario.

5. Why this doesn't come up as a frequent issue is because much of the time the player becomes aware the outside influence has lifted or moved the ball before playing it. In which case 9.6 requires the player to replace the ball. This replacement takes care of both getting the ball in the correct place and...in case it were necessary... putting it back into play. So the question of whether the ball was taken out of play just doesn't come up in your ordinary 9.6 scenario.

6. The natural extension is that this can become complicated when the outside influence who lifts the ball is not a player. If that person puts the ball back down in some way, why did they do it? If they're a spectator who is no longer available for questioning, how do we know? But again, consider the various real-life scenarios for that situation: most of the time if the player ever finds out about the movement its either before playing the ball (in which case it gets replaced and is back in play properly regardless of whether it was in or out because of the random person) or long after the fact when the only result is to accept the score as played (the end result in both 9.6/3 and 9.6/4).

7. Tying it together, what does the Rule say? In play says the ball remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lifted from the course. In 14.1 lifting is internally defined as the deliberate "lifting" of a player's ball at rest which includes picking the ball up by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot. For those that argue 14.1b means someone else not authorized by 14.1b cannot "lift" a ball and take it out of play, we see why you say that, but that's not how it works. We clearly used the term lifted in a number of places referring to other persons besides those authorized in 14.1b. And then finally in Rule 14.4 including Interpretation 14.4/1 as well as the definition of drop, intent is an element in getting a ball back into play. So following the chain, yes a person who is an outside influence could take a ball out of play and put it back into play. But this essentially leads down only a handful of roads as mentioned above: if OI lifting or movement is discovered before playing that ball, the ball is replaced and takes care of eliminating both wrong place and wrong ball possibilities in one fell swoop. If it was not KVC at the time the ball was played, if the ball had just been moved we Rule that it was not a wrong place since the movement wasn’t KVC prior to the stroke (9.6/3). If the ball was out of play such that the player were unaware the ball was out of play, then we don't penalize the playing of the wrong ball and will handle whether or not a correction needs to be made based on when the discovery of the wrong ball is made (9.6/4).

8. Last but not least, yes it matters who lifted it and who puts it back. Not necessarily for putting the ball back into play, but because of Rule 14.2b(1). Take our original A, B, C scenario above except after lifting the ball to get out of B's way, C actually held on and tossed the ball to B who then replaced the ball on the original spot and picked up the ball-marker for C while walking to the hole after his putt. C originally lifted, B replaced it. If this becomes known to A before playing the ball, either A or C need to re-replace the ball. Notably, that ball is in play and in the right place…just not by the right person as required by Rule 14.2. We would not penalize the player for this mistake if A were not aware of B and C’s actions, the same way the player would not get a wrong place penalty in 9.6/3 or wrong ball penalty in 9.6/4.

USGA Rules of Golf Discussion | Thanks to the USGA for answering my previous question clarifying that a player’s ball lifted from the course by an Outside Influence is in fact out ... | Facebook

Thanks to the USGA for answering my previous question clarifying that a player’s ball lifted from the course by an Outside Influence is in fact out of play. My follow up questions: Can an Outside...

www.facebook.com

SL addition: I don't know if that second link is operational (not a tech guru) - here's another version, just in case....

USGA Rules of Golf Discussion | Thanks to the USGA for answering my previous question clarifying that a player’s ball lifted from the course by an Outside Influence is in fact out ... | Facebook

Thanks to the USGA for answering my previous question clarifying that a player’s ball lifted from the course by an Outside Influence is in fact out of play. My follow up questions: Can an Outside...

www.facebook.com

 

[rulefan]

These are all good questions posed above by the OP, Rulie and Colin. Believe me, I've been there too, but have had an opportunity to work through these issues face to face and in written form with RB officials. Even better, I can provide/reference USGA words (below) where they have put significant and valuable explanation of these complex "lifted" versus "moved" themes in a public place, their FB Rules page.

First the headline questions: a) if ANY person deliberately picks up a ball in play on the course, is that ball "lifted" for the purposes of the Rules (meaning no longer in play) or merely "moved" (meaning in a wrong place)? Answer: it is treated by the Rules as "lifted" regardless of the motivations of the person doing the deliberate pick up.
b) if that same person or another person returns the lifted ball to the course, is that ball back in play? Answer: it depends - see the detail below.

Question: Player A and Player B are fellow competitors (EDIT: not partners) in a stroke play competition. Player A hits out of a green side bunker to within 2 feet of the hole and while Player A is raking the bunker, Player B marks Player A’s ball, picks it up, and gently tosses it somewhere else on the green to get It it out of the way. Player A did not know this was happening. Is Player A’s ball still in play or is it now a wrong ball?

USGA RESPONSE

It's a wrong ball. The ball was lifted, which means it was taken out of play and it was not put back into play.

However, since A was unaware of this, A is not penalized for playing a wrong ball. If this information comes to light before the player starts the next hole, the mistake must be corrected by playing replacing the ball on the correct spot (thus putting it back into play in the correct place) and finishing out the hole. If this is not discovered until after the player has started the next hole then the score with the wrong ball stands.

An old Decision covered this situation exactly (15-3b/3) and that ruling still stands, but is now covered by the premise of Interpretation 9.6/4.

Many thanks for all that.

I was still messing about with post #15 adding the reference to 15-3b/3 before I got round to reading your post.

The USGA's differentiation between objects, animals and people is interesting and perhaps should be represented in the Definitions and relevant Rules/Clarifications.

But am still unsure about the reference to OOB in 9.6/4

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes. Thank you Salfordlad. The USGA piece is well-written and well-reasoned.

But am still unsure about the reference to OOB in 9.6/4

Ageed. It would have been clearer (to me) if they had written 9.6/4 around a generic wrong ball/ball out of play scenario and, by all means, added some words like '....including, for example, when the ball is moved onto the course by an outside influence after the ball had come to rest out of bounds....'

Many of the other Rule 9 Clarifications give examples to illustrate the general point being made, whereas 9.6/4 is presented as if the OOB scenario is the only applicable one. The heading is generic and fine but the wording of the Clatification is very narrow and specific.

 

[salfordlad]

Yes. Thank you Salfordlad. The USGA piece is well-written and well-reasoned.



Ageed. It would have been clearer (to me) if they had written 9.6/4 around a generic wrong ball/ball out of play scenario and, by all means, added some words like '....including, for example, when the ball is moved onto the course by an outside influence after the ball had come to rest out of bounds....'

Many of the other Rule 9 Clarifications give examples to illustrate the general point being made, whereas 9.6/4 is presented as if the OOB scenario is the only applicable one. The heading is generic and fine but the wording of the Clatification is very narrow and specific.

I agree we don't have transparency of the full implications in the Rule or the Clarification. Many serious students of the Rules have asked about this - that says a great deal in itself. That it took so many careful words by the USGA to convey the true intent also says a lot. This is not a new problem, it is a direct carryover of what existed pre-2019 but at least we have the further words to guide now.