potential problem with the new 'flag in' rule !

[Grant85]

If the rule is you can have the flag in, then you're not "abusing" anything.

FYI, I already plan telling my partners on first tee to leave pin in unless I ask. I play solo golf a lot, and rarely have the pin out. Ram those short ones in against the stick

I think this has probably been harder to legislate for than you would imagine.

In reality they are making the rule to speed things up a bit and include fewer things you can be penalised for, but the unintended consequence is that it will have an impact on play and scores..

Hence why I would not be surprised if we see a move back, at least for elite play and use a form of local rules to let clubs make their own decisions rather than have separate rule books.

 

[6535]

All I can say is those who are going to hit the putt as hard as that and the ball travelling at that velocity, in that video, on shorter putts, good luck with that, I hope your putter path is absolutely square at impact so you can hit a pin that’s less then an inch wide. If not, good luck with the 6ft putt back.

Like he said if you hit the putt with perfect speed and line, with or without the flag in, it makes no difference. It’s only when the gallatically insane who hit putts harder the closer they get will they benefit.

The rule is to those who are a long way from the pin can putt with flag in (whilst his playing partner is raking his bunker and not wait for him to tend) and know that there won’t be a penalty if he hits the pin, This is to keep the game moving. But the rule hasn’t been brought in to take away a players right to have the pin tended if he so wishes. And if a player wants it tending for whatever reason then I’d expect a fellow player to respect that and not to be awkward and cause animosity towards them.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I wonder why the Pros take the flag out when they are on the fringe either putting or chipping

Also when I played the Centurion club their flags are a bit different - three times I hit the flag and it bounced out

Also I think keeping the flag in dumbs the game down a little bit and helps people get away with overhit putts

And it adds nothing to the pace of play from experience.

 

[SteveJay]

The amount of times I've had golf balls not drop because the blasted flag was in the hole and I'd not had the foresight to ask someone to attend the blasted thing drives me mad. I wouldn't putt at the hole unless I'd have some at least ready to grab it out if I'd actually got my ball on the right line.

But remember, the ball doesn't have to drop now, any part of it below the level of the green counts as being holed.

 

[Orikoru]

Thanks, that was interesting and a little surprising. Quite brief, it seems like they only tested putts going straight at the middle of the cup, not sure if results are the same for one that would lip in at the sides. But it does at least prove that putts that are on-line but too hard are more likely to drop with the flag in.

Even knowing that, I can't see myself ever asking someone to put the flag back in for my putts. I'd just feel like I was being a fussy tosspot to be honest. If I'm first on the green and first to putt I'll leave it in, but once it's out it's staying out.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I would have thought that any putt hit hard enough to go over the hole would equally be hard enough to bounce off the flag and stay out. Maybe it ends up 6 inches in front instead of 18 inches past but either way it's a tap in. I wouldn't expect it to make an enormous difference, maybe one shot per round...

That's a quarter of my handicap, so a pretty huge advantage.

...and for Pro's a 1 shot reduction in average scores would be massive

 

[Orikoru]

That's a quarter of my handicap, so a pretty huge advantage.

...and for Pro's a 1 shot reduction in average scores would be massive

Haha, that's fair enough. Emphasis was on 'maybe' though! You're right, obviously the pros and low handicap players will eventually be ensuring that the flag is in if it could benefit them at all. I just meant from my own perspective I don't think the benefit would be notable enough to be worth the faffing about.

 

[garyinderry]

Haha, that's fair enough. Emphasis was on 'maybe' though! You're right, obviously the pros and low handicap players will eventually be ensuring that the flag is in if it could benefit them at all. I just meant from my own perspective I don't think the benefit would be notable enough to be worth the faffing about.

It may well turn out that taking the flag out becomes the faff.

 

[TheDiablo]

I wonder why the Pros take the flag out when they are on the fringe either putting or chipping

Also when I played the Centurion club their flags are a bit different - three times I hit the flag and it bounced out

Also I think keeping the flag in dumbs the game down a little bit and helps people get away with overhit putts

And it adds nothing to the pace of play from experience.

For similar reasons to why pros 10 years ago believed putting more important than driving and focus practice in that area, until Strokes Gained proved otherwise and revolutionised the pro game. It's just what they've always been told and consequently their habits are formed around that.

We now live in an age where data is king, and marginal gains in elite sport are everything. Prove to a top player they'll save a 5 shots a year with the flag in and they'll change said behaviour.

It will take a while, but as more and more studies will prove flag in to be better, pros will change. The young pros coming through will know no different, and that will have a knock on into the am game eventually.

You've also contradicted yourself a bit in the above, but that often happens with anecdotal bias as previously alluded to in one of my earlier posts (not to you)

At that point it will help with pace of play, but I agree not to as much as some hope/expect.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I will probably go for flag out as I tend to be more of a 'dead weight' putter, I very rarely hole putts with any great speed on them.

 

[jim8flog]

A ball that is kept out by a flag stick has to be one of a number of things.

- it was going to fast to drop
- the flag was leaning too much and covered the hole.
- the flag moved in the wind and deflected the ball.
- ball spinning like crazy at the hole (Hatton this year)


.

And add if you play where I do

The flagstick is too big.

When give the choice I.e. ball off the green I have always had it taken out for uphill putts and left in for downhill putts with our new flagsticks the flag comes out more often than it used to too.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

The flagstick is too big.

A valid point as there are 3 types of flag pole to my knowledge and I'm sure there are differing stats for each type. The thick type (which we have), the tapered type that are thinner at the bottom and the whippy 'bamboo stick' ones.

Anyone seen any studies showing if it is advantageous or not to have the flag in for each type of flag stick?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

A valid point as there are 3 types of flag pole to my knowledge and I'm sure there are differing stats for each type. The thick type (which we have), the tapered type that are thinner at the bottom and the whippy 'bamboo stick' ones.

Anyone seen any studies showing if it is advantageous or not to have the flag in for each type of flag stick?

Didn't DeChambeau say that h'ed decide whether to leave it in or not based on the pins being used for each tournament?
I believe the US Open uses thick flagsticks (particularly at Medina) so he'd take it out then, but if it's a thinner/more bendy one he'd leave it in.

He'll probably carry out a flagstick elasticity test during practice rounds.

 

[garyinderry]

All these tests should have been done a long time ago when the change was first brought up.

Staggering that it hasn't.


I really do think everyone should Get out there and test their own.

 

[Grant85]

I will probably go for flag out as I tend to be more of a 'dead weight' putter, I very rarely hole putts with any great speed on them.

This still doesn't make logical sense. The video stated that putts at a reasonable pace all dropped, regardless of the flag being in or out.

And there was a demonstrable advantage to the flag being left in for speedier putts. So again, for the odd time you race a putt at the hole, or misjudge the speed, why handicap yourself by not leaving the flag there?

Plus, I would definitely challenge you to go and set up a 4 or 5 footer and putt with the flag in multiple times. Aim to hit the middle of the flag and contact it rather than just drop it in the front of the hole.
I was putting with the flag in the other week when playing myself. I found that holing out from that kind of range was much easier as you could hit a much firmer putt knowing there was very little chance of hitting it too hard. It removed a fairly large variable, not to mention that you could generally eliminate the break on putts from that kind of distance.

As a 'dead weight' putter, 100% of the putts you leave short will not go in. But now, with the flag in, a very decent percentage of putts hit too firmly will still drop or be much closer to the hole than they would otherwise have been.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

This still doesn't make logical sense. The video stated that putts at a reasonable pace all dropped, regardless of the flag being in or out.

And there was a demonstrable advantage to the flag being left in for speedier putts. So again, for the odd time you race a putt at the hole, or misjudge the speed, why handicap yourself by not leaving the flag there?

Plus, I would definitely challenge you to go and set up a 4 or 5 footer and putt with the flag in multiple times. Aim to hit the middle of the flag and contact it rather than just drop it in the front of the hole.
I was putting with the flag in the other week when playing myself. I found that holing out from that kind of range was much easier as you could hit a much firmer putt knowing there was very little chance of hitting it too hard. It removed a fairly large variable, not to mention that you could generally eliminate the break on putts from that kind of distance.

As a 'dead weight' putter, 100% of the putts you leave short will not go in. But now, with the flag in, a very decent percentage of putts hit too firmly will still drop or be much closer to the hole than they would otherwise have been.

Ok, if you say so 😉

 

[clubchamp98]

All these tests should have been done a long time ago when the change was first brought up.

Staggering that it hasn't.


I really do think everyone should Get out there and test their own.

Some sort of uniformity would help as the hole dosnt change size the flag should be one size.
Quite costly for clubs to buy all new sticks though.

 

[Imurg]

Quite expensive to potentially have to reprint scorecards...

 

[Bigfoot]

We tried it yesterday but I found that I wanted it out every time I was on the green - so I can't see it changing what I do except for a very downhill putt on a quick green.

 

[Jacko_G]

Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
This might reinforce your like of having the flag in.
But for others they don’t like it in ,that dosnt make them wrong just not in agreement.

My own experience tells me that the flag left in is more beneficial that it has ever been a hindrance.

Overhit a bump'n'run - hits the flag is drops or smacks the flag, kills the majority of the speed and leaves you a putt of under 3 feet rather than a 20 footer. Of course I have hit a chip and the flag has kept the ball out but the vast majority of the time its a positive influence on the outcome rather than a negative. We just like to dwell on the ones that maybe should have, could have instead of the bad shots that end up good.

I have even witnessed the most crazy eagle in my life which involved the flag. Playing in a monsoon in a match play competition the person I was playing against hit a monster drive and was only 40 yards short of the green, he then proceeded to knife/thin his approach which hit the flag, the material, not the pole, it wrapped itself in the wet material before falling straight down and into the hole. I doubt I'll ever witness anything like that again in my life.