potential problem with the new 'flag in' rule !

[Jacko_G]

Thanks for that Bob found that quite interesting and confirms to me at least it's worth it to leave it in

I'll be playing that video on repeat to all those slow coaches who want it tended. Should help reinforce the message - leave it in!

 

[Wolf]

I'll be playing that video on repeat to all those slow coaches who want it tended. Should help reinforce the message - leave it in!

Stop it you'll get called a troll for having an unfashionable mindset that doesn't conform

 

[bobmac]

Thanks for that Bob found that quite interesting and confirms to me at least it's worth it to leave it in

I remember Dave Pelz did a similar test years ago which got the same results but can't find it

 

[garyinderry]

Mygolfspy have their test coming this week.

Can't believe there isn't a tidal wave of these videos from the YouTube world. If ever there was a video opportunity then this massive fundamental change in golf was it.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

The amount of times I've had golf balls not drop because the blasted flag was in the hole and I'd not had the foresight to ask someone to attend the blasted thing drives me mad. I wouldn't putt at the hole unless I'd have some at least ready to grab it out if I'd actually got my ball on the right line.

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm pretty sure that tests have been done to prove the point

My tests show if you hit the putt harder and it misses the flag completely it goes a long way past.

 

[virtuocity]

That video is good enough for me. Reasonably robust methodology, arguments based on empirical evidence and delivered clearly and simply.

Thanks for posting Bob.

Cue the anti-intellectualist retorts though from the 'I've played golf for xxx years and I can tell you...' types.

 

[clubchamp98]

That video is good enough for me. Reasonably robust methodology, arguments based on empirical evidence and delivered clearly and simply.

Thanks for posting Bob.

Cue the anti-intellectualist retorts though from the 'I've played golf for xxx years and I can tell you...' types.

Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
This might reinforce your like of having the flag in.
But for others they don’t like it in ,that dosnt make them wrong just not in agreement.

 

[TheDiablo]

I wouldn't expect it to make an enormous difference, maybe one shot per round.

Who doesn't want to save a shot per round? Put another way, if you believe this to be roughly accurate and still take the flag out, you're starting with an extra shot on your card mentally. Which is insane.

I don't think anyone thinks it's suddenly going to shave off 6 shots!

 

[TheDiablo]

Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
This might reinforce your like of having the flag in.
But for others they don’t like it in ,that dosnt make them wrong just not in agreement.

Give me empirical evidence over biased anecdotal evidence every time. Human nature/psychology will sway your memory to remembering the bad luck.

Although I'm happy playing against people who would rather use anecdotal evidence, it definitely gives the rational person an advantage so crack on!

 

[garyinderry]

A ball that is kept out by a flag stick has to be one of a number of things.

- it was going to fast to drop
- the flag was leaning too much and covered the hole.
- the flag moved in the wind and deflected the ball.
- ball spinning like crazy at the hole (Hatton this year)


There is enough room between the edge of the hole and the flag for the ball to fit and begin to fall if the ball is travelling at a reasonable speed.

 

[Grant85]

That is interesting to know there is such a difference.

As I've said earlier in the thread, given there does look to be a clear advantage, I'd be surprised if they don't review this again - especially if Pros start using the stick as a backstop and banging putts in.

 

[clubchamp98]

Give me empirical evidence over biased anecdotal evidence every time. Human nature/psychology will sway your memory to remembering the bad luck.

Although I'm happy playing against people who would rather use anecdotal evidence, it definitely gives the rational person an advantage so crack on!

This is very interesting you either like the flag in or you don’t.
I can’t see you tube vids changing to many experienced golfers minds.

One down side of flag in nobody has mentioned is ,
I have played with players who can’t get the ball out of the hole with the flag in so they take it out just to retrieve the ball.
Or pull the flag quickly to try and get ball to pop out possibly damaging the hole.
Mainly guys with small hands / fingers. Or seniors with those ball retrievers.

 

[clubchamp98]

That is interesting to know there is such a difference.

As I've said earlier in the thread, given there does look to be a clear advantage, I'd be surprised if they don't review this again - especially if Pros start using the stick as a backstop and banging putts in.

I am sure years ago Peter Alliss discussed this during the Masters.
They said tests were done and it was an advantage to have the flag in that’s why it was not allowed.
I think they were discussing why some pros have it out for chipping disadvantaging themselves.

 

[virtuocity]

Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?

The word of this particular video- yes. I'm satisfied with the creator's methodology.

The fact you allude to confirmation bias on my part, despite you arguing against what is a clearly technical-rational matter (across two threads) suggests that it is actually you who cannot see past facts for the distraction of your own bias.

There was a time when very respected golf instructors taught players that to hit a draw, the club face should be closed to target at impact. New ball flight laws put paid to that. Science informs us, and we must move on, but there will still be a huge amount of quite intellectual and sensible people flipping their hands over throughout the swing in pursuit of a push-draw which will never come. Your stance on flags is the equivalent.

As long as you're happy tho!

 

[clubchamp98]

The word of this particular video- yes. I'm satisfied with the creator's methodology.

The fact you allude to confirmation bias on my part, despite you arguing against what is a clearly technical-rational matter (across two threads) suggests that it is actually you who cannot see past facts for the distraction of your own bias.

There was a time when very respected golf instructors taught players that to hit a draw, the club face should be closed to target at impact. New ball flight laws put paid to that. Science informs us, and we must move on, but there will still be a huge amount of quite intellectual and sensible people flipping their hands over throughout the swing in pursuit of a push-draw which will never come. Your stance on flags is the equivalent.

As long as you're happy tho!

Yes your right I prefer my own (bias) experience in this matter.
Nobody is right or wrong just my practice time tells me what’s best for ME .

 

[virtuocity]

Yes your right I prefer my own (bias) experience in this matter.
Nobody is right or wrong just my practice time tells me what’s best for ME .

I respect your position.

 

[USER1999]

I will still want the pin out if I am chipping on from a distance where I think I might hole it. Similar for putts. I just like to see the flag out of the hole. It makes the hole look bigger. It also mentally makes me think I am trying to hole it.

Does this work? Probably not, but I cannot imagine changing now, no matter how many videos get posted.

 

[NearHull]

I left the flag in yesterday for a few putts - but left them short. I think its the bit between the ears that seems to stop me getting up to the hole with the flag in . Given time, I'll adjust.

 

[HughJars]

Out for 9 this afternoon and obviously didn't take the flag out every time I had a putt and wondered how this new rule will work. On many of the holes the flag lay away from me providing a backstop for my putt.

This is especially handy on those pesky 3 footers. I felt I could hit them that but harder with the flag in and leaning away.

Will the new rule lead to everyone trying to take advantage of this? will it lead to more time wasted?

If its within the rules and I feel I have a benefit from it, I will most likely end up asking for the flag to be put in if I feel it will lie leaning away from me.

Fast downhillers I would probably leave it in too from any distance.

I can see this being abused in a big way once everyone catches on. You hear of 'using the rules to your advantage.' this is one that will be massively abused jmo.


I'd personally not bother changing this rule. It was fine the way it is. I feel this could get messy. You could have the flag being put in and out multiple times while one four ball is all on the green. Crazy.


Thoughts?

If the rule is you can have the flag in, then you're not "abusing" anything.

FYI, I already plan telling my partners on first tee to leave pin in unless I ask. I play solo golf a lot, and rarely have the pin out. Ram those short ones in against the stick