rulefan
Tour Winner
Last edited:
Plus players’ handicaps?
- Thread starter MarkT
- Start date
4LEX
Well-known member
As a serious player, I don't care about the rules. Just hit good golf shots and let your scores do the talking was what I had drummed into me. If you win great, if you don't who cares.
D
Deleted member 1147
Guest
Typo ?
sunshine
Well-known member
Reading this thread, I feel like some people haven't properly read or thought about your point, and are just quoting generic statements. You do realise that slope isn't a measure of absolute difficulty but actually relative difficulty for a scratch and bogey golfer?
It is logical to me that, on a tough course with a high slope rating, a bogey golfer needs more shots than HI. And the better the golfer, the CH should trend to HI.
It doesn't make sense to me why that trend does not continue below scratch, I don't understand the V shaped trend.
On the flipside, those with plus handicaps are so few and far between, and unlikely to be interested in playing many handicap events, that it is arguably a moot point.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'm sure this has been answered, but not going to go through all comments.
The purpose of the slope system is to deal with the relative difference of ability between low and high handicappers, NOT the absolute difficulty of the course. Therefore, at a course with a high slope, that means the relative difficulty between low and high handicappers is greater. So, the difference in the number of shots between them will increase. So, if you have a plus handicapper, they will move further away from zero, just as the higher handicapper does in the other direction.
If a +3 handicapper (index) was playing against a scratch golfer, at a course with Slope 113, they'd play off +3 and 0 (course handicaps), the difference being 3. However, if they played at a course with slope 150, then the +3 golfer would likely have a Course handicap of +4, the scratch golfer still 0. So, the difference between them is now an extra shot, because the relative difference makes it that little bit harder for the scratch player than for the +3 player
sunshine
Well-known member
doublebogey7
Head Pro
In the first case I assume you.think the +5 player should be playing off +4 rather than +6., This would make no sense as the 5 player would still be getting just 10 shots against the plus handicapper on a RELATIVELY harder course for higher handicappers. Just to further illustrate, a scratch player at that club would remain off scratch, a player with a HI of 10 would receive 12 shots, so similar to the +5 and -5 players in your example there would be 12 shots between them, which makes complete sense to me.
D
Deleted member 21445
Guest
I'm off +1
Went to a championship golf course in Southport with a harder slope and rating than my home course and had to play off +2
Its confusing to say the least
The idea is the harder the course the more shots you get but when you go + the opposite happens ???
Went to a championship golf course in Southport with a harder slope and rating than my home course and had to play off +2
Its confusing to say the least
The idea is the harder the course the more shots you get but when you go + the opposite happens ???
wjemather
Well-known member
Course Rating is the measure of course difficulty, not the Slope Rating.
A higher Slope just means the course is relatively harder for higher handicappers (compared to lower handicappers), and relatively easier for lower handicappers (compared to higher handicappers). As such, high handicappers get more strokes and plus handicappers give more strokes back to the course.
sunshine
Well-known member
The way the system works is so illogical. But I think I understand it now.
The course is relatively harder for higher handicappers than you. For example a scratch golfer would see their handicap move from 0 to 0, so you are getting "penalised" a shot to allow for the fact that they need more help from the handicap system than you.
The important thing to grasp with slope index is that is about relative difficulty compared to other golfers. It's not how hard you find the course. I'm struggling with this concept too.
wjemather
Well-known member
It probably would have been easier for most people to get their head around if CONGU had included "Course Rating - Par" in the Course Handicap calculation like the rest of the world!!
Swango1980
Well-known member
100% agree
rulefan
Tour Winner
Why? Par is a meaningless arbitrary number.
Swango1980
Well-known member
You better tell the USPGA that then
rulefan
Tour Winner
What does par actually mean?You better tell the USPGA that then
Steve Wilkes
Well-known member
I know what you mean, you don't need par in a strokeplay medal, but without a par stableford doesn't work unless you score 5 for a 1, 4 for 2, 3 for 3 etc... regardless of length of hole
yandabrown
Newbie
Dean Knuth, the inventor of the slope system, is very much against the change, here is a snippet from his site (emphasis mine):
... I am very concerned with details of the new World Handicap System.
In an effort to create a process that every golf association in the world can accept (One Size Fits All concept), the USGA has downgraded the handicap system in the United States. What was a straightforward and precise process has been transformed into one that is more complicated and less precise. American golfers will immediately feel its changes. I believe that the introduction of what I’ll call “par handicaps,” is the most significant mistake.
What is a par handicap? A par handicap results when par is part of the calculation that creates a Playing Handicap or Course Handicap. As you know, par was not a factor in the American system of handicap calculation, nor need it have been. One’s handicap index was adjusted not by par but by course rating to create a playing handicap, or what we continue to call a Course Handicap. A course’s rating, not its par, is what’s important. Two courses with par 72s, I don’t have to tell you, can vary greatly in difficulty.
You can read more here: https://popeofslope.com/world-handicap-system.html
... I am very concerned with details of the new World Handicap System.
In an effort to create a process that every golf association in the world can accept (One Size Fits All concept), the USGA has downgraded the handicap system in the United States. What was a straightforward and precise process has been transformed into one that is more complicated and less precise. American golfers will immediately feel its changes. I believe that the introduction of what I’ll call “par handicaps,” is the most significant mistake.
What is a par handicap? A par handicap results when par is part of the calculation that creates a Playing Handicap or Course Handicap. As you know, par was not a factor in the American system of handicap calculation, nor need it have been. One’s handicap index was adjusted not by par but by course rating to create a playing handicap, or what we continue to call a Course Handicap. A course’s rating, not its par, is what’s important. Two courses with par 72s, I don’t have to tell you, can vary greatly in difficulty.
You can read more here: https://popeofslope.com/world-handicap-system.html
wjemather
Well-known member
The majority of players compare their scores against the par of each hole and the par of the course - they simply don't understand or care about Course Rating.
Par is also a fundamental part of the handicapping system due to net double bogey adjustments.
I've read Dean Knuth's arguments against the USGA's adoption of this part of the calculation and they just don't stand mathematical scrutiny. In fact, not adopting CR-Par has a very small detrimental effect on the aforementioned net double bogey adjustments.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Par is the score that 99%+ golfers see as the score a "scratch" golfer should go round in, and what 99%+ of golfers compare their score to.
These golfers do not appreciate that the Par of the course says nothing about how hard the course is.
However, if CR-Par was embedded within the handicap, then they no longer need to worry about this. A scratch golfer will not be a scratch golfer at a very hard course, he may play off 2, 3, or whatever. At a very very easy course he may play off +2, +3 or whatever.
Using CR-Par removes the confusion golfers have, gives them more shots at very hard courses and less at very easy courses. This is why other national authorities have chosen to use this, and I am assuming the reason they have is based on my description above.
Swango1980
Well-known member
It sounds like Mr Knuth has not fully understood what the WHS does. WHS DOES use Course Rating when calculating Player Index values. It does not use Par at all. In the US, it only used Par when converting the Index back to Course Handicap so that the course handicap reflects both the absolute and relative difficulties of the course.
I'm only judging this by what I read in your post. I'm sure he has a plethora of knowledge of what the US did before (obviously), and maybe I have misinterpreted his statement in relation to WHS.
