Playing two competitions at two different clubs on same day

[rulefan]

I just want to confirm I understand this even though I haven't played in a h/cap competition since 2004 and it will never affect in the future...I'm just curious...
Joe Smith shoots 45 stableford points off 15 in the morning. In the afternoon, he plays a knockout match and must play off 15?

Yes. Just the same as scoring 15 points in the morning.
Remember, handicaps and adjustments are now based on the best 8 of the last 20 rounds not on a reaction to one isolated round.
The authorities don't expect the player to have all the information and calculation facilities available to do that.

 

[bobmac]

Yes. Just the same as scoring 15 points in the morning.
Remember, handicaps and adjustments are now based on the best 8 of the last 20 rounds not on a reaction to one isolated round.
The authorities don't expect the player to have all the information a calculation facilities available to do that.

Thank you.

 

[Voyager EMH]

How many people got pulled from one round to the next under the old system?

I did for one. Every club championship day - 36 holes.
It was a scratch event so the adjustment did not affect outcomes.
But many of us were interested to see if the standard scratch had changed and the effect on our handicaps, if the handicap sec was swift with the printout before the afternoon round commenced.

 

[Voyager EMH]

That's awful.
Why the change?

Many people winding you up here Bob.
They answered your "why" question as if it had been "how".

Simple answer is that WHS created no facility for a change in HI during the same day.
PCC is not calculated until all cards from that day on that course are submitted. That's another answer to "why" I hope.

And although I am able to calculate my HI with machine precision, I am not allowed to do that either, but must accept the WHS approximation that could be out by plus-or-minus 0.1.
That's nothing to do with your question, merely a wind-up for some others, sorry.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Many people winding you up here Bob.

That's nothing to with your question, merely a wind-up for some others, sorry.

I'm really not seeing anyone trying to wind Bob up. The answers are pretty straight, they have explained what is happening. A few different people, me included, have answered as Bob has asked different variations of the same point. All valid though. He was trying to clarify using different scenarios. People have answered appropriately. They are not saying it is better or worse, just how it is.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'm really not seeing anyone trying to wind Bob up. The answers are pretty straight, they have explained what is happening. A few different people, me included, have answered as Bob has asked different variations of the same point. All valid though. He was trying to clarify using different scenarios. People have answered appropriately. They are not saying it is better or worse, just how it is.

I did not say anyone was "trying" to wind Bob up.
I felt one-or-two had wound Bob up.
I could be wrong, but he seemed to me to be wound up a bit by some replies.

 

[bobmac]

I did not say anyone was "trying" to wind Bob up.
I felt one-or-two had wound Bob up.
I could be wrong, but he seemed to me to be wound up a bit by some replies.

I asked if under the new system a player was allowed to cut himself after a good round in the morning for a pm comp.
I was then told how the old system worked???
I considered that patronising and unnecessary.

Then the goal posts started to move, a common occurrence on here.

But the biggest issue for me is how the system has done a complete 180.
In the olden days, if you played off a higher handicap than you had, you were DQ'd, now it doesn't seem to matter because the ''new improved'' system is too complicated for the average golfer to understand. ''Wait until tomorrow and we'll cut you then''.

I have never played under the new system but judging by the amount of queries and threads on here about it, it seems far from an improvement from the old system of different SSS for different courses.

 

[rulefan]

I was then told how the old system worked???
I considered that patronising and unnecessary.

I responded with a description of both the old and new systems together with an explanation of why it may now be considered difficult for players to self adjust.
Both were necessary in order to highlight the difference in before and after.

I apologise if you thought it patronising. It wasn't my intent.

 

[rulefan]

I have never played under the new system but judging by the amount of queries and threads on here about it, it seems far from an improvement from the old system of different SSS for different courses.

I believe you were a very skilled player when you played under the old system. So you are probably not so aware of a major benefit of WHS to the higher handicapper - Slope.
Now there is a rating that recognises that courses are inherently more or less difficult for players with different handicaps. SSS was aimed directly at scratch players (as its name implies).
I do recognise that there are critics of some of the more technical features but by its very nature, golf and handicapping can never be perfect.

 

[bobmac]

Both were necessary in order to highlight the difference in before and after.

The fact you thought that is disappointing.
But interesting how you avoided my biggest issue.
Playing off a wrong h/cap was punishable by the highest punishment available. Not a slap on the wrist, a firm talking to, a stern letter, a one shot penalty or even a 2 shot penalty...DISQUALIFICATION. Something I was always told was to be used as a last resort. But now because the new system is so complicated it's ok to play off the wrong h/cap and tough luck to your PM opponent.

eg

Calculating your course handicap does require some mathematical skills. In 2020, the formulas used to calculate golf handicaps were changed. The current formula you should use is:

• Handicap Index x (Slope Rating/113) + (Course Rating - Par)

The handicap index is an average of golf round scores and has its own calculation. This formula requires you to sum your differentials and divide these by the number of differentials used, and then multiply the result by 0.96.



Utter nonsense in my opinion.
Gross score minus SSS = H/cap

It didn't need fixing

 

[Voyager EMH]

I asked if under the new system a player was allowed to cut himself after a good round in the morning for a pm comp.
I was then told how the old system worked???
I considered that patronising and unnecessary.

Then the goal posts started to move, a common occurrence on here.

But the biggest issue for me is how the system has done a complete 180.
In the olden days, if you played off a higher handicap than you had, you were DQ'd, now it doesn't seem to matter because the ''new improved'' system is too complicated for the average golfer to understand. ''Wait until tomorrow and we'll cut you then''.

I have never played under the new system but judging by the amount of queries and threads on here about it, it seems far from an improvement from the old system of different SSS for different courses.

It is very hard to assess an "improvement" on the old system, because this will be opinion based.
It is very different from the old system and hence takes a lot of time and thinking-adjustment to get used to it.

One the one big hurdle that many fell-down-at-the-first was not having an identifiable equivalent handicap to their old one.
Many latched on to their Course Handicap as a new handicap that was equivalent to their old handicap then railed against 95%, 90% and 85% as "losing shots".
My perception was that Course Handicap was used when you handed in scores for your handicap to be adjusted, but Playing Handicap was used when you played with and against others.

I am still hearing things like, "I scored 40 points today and would have won, but the 95% means I got 39."
Or, "Beat my handicap today, but my handicap went up - stupid system!"

Within a few weeks of us starting with WHS, I predicted it would take 4 to 6 years for most golfers to adapt their thinking to it. I based this on the way people dealt with decimalisation of our coinage. For many 37p did not mean much unless they converted it back to shillings and pence to have a perception of "how much money is that." This kind of thing went on for several years. Letting go of the old system is not an easy thing to do for many.
We will be entering that 4-6 year period. Opinions will change. Forthcoming changes in April might extend that 4-6 years to 4-8 years, however.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Is it most golfers? Or just a vocal minority?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Is it most golfers? Or just a vocal minority?

Too small a sample of geezers at my club to extrapolate countrywide.
I try to remember to type "many" rather than "most", but probably forget from time to time.

 

[rulefan]

Gross score minus SSS = H/cap

How does that one score reflect their playing ability?

CONGU 2016
Throughout its history there have been regular revisions to the CONGU® handicapping system all
with the aim of assisting club members to have handicaps that truly reflect their playing ability.

 

[bobmac]

How does that one score reflect their playing ability?

It shouldn't, it should reflect their playing potential.
ie
on a good day you should play to your handicap, not 6 - 8 shots under

 

[Deleted member 35504]

The fact you thought that is disappointing.
But interesting how you avoided my biggest issue.
Playing off a wrong h/cap was punishable by the highest punishment available. Not a slap on the wrist, a firm talking to, a stern letter, a one shot penalty or even a 2 shot penalty...DISQUALIFICATION. Something I was always told was to be used as a last resort. But now because the new system is so complicated it's ok to play off the wrong h/cap and tough luck to your PM opponent.

eg

Calculating your course handicap does require some mathematical skills. In 2020, the formulas used to calculate golf handicaps were changed. The current formula you should use is:

• Handicap Index x (Slope Rating/113) + (Course Rating - Par)

The handicap index is an average of golf round scores and has its own calculation. This formula requires you to sum your differentials and divide these by the number of differentials used, and then multiply the result by 0.96.

View attachment 51581

Utter nonsense in my opinion.
Gross score minus SSS = H/cap

It didn't need fixing

Potentially, most might agree with you...

So while I was originally a year out, this did actually change over 3 years ago and has been argued to death ad nauseum everywhere. What's the point of derailing a thread with a 3 year old argument?

 

[bobmac]

What's the point of derailing a thread with a 3 year old argument?

From the very first post...
''I can see potential issues with this for WHS index purposes (say for example had a very good round at current club in the morning the index wouldn’t refresh until midnight therefore when playing a second round at new club the index wouldn’t be updated)''

 

[rulefan]

From the very first post...
''I can see potential issues with this for WHS index purposes ..."

How often do you see such extreme real cases (as in your example) ?
As a comp & handicap chair, I have never.

 

[bobmac]

How often do you see such extreme real cases (as in your example) ?
As a comp & handicap chair, I have never.

1. Have you forgotten I have never played under the WHS
2. I haven't played in about 5 years so I wouldn't have seen any real cases
3. It wasn't my question, it was from the OP so not my example

 

[Pachanga]

Hi all, thanks for your comments and debate. I appreciate your views. When I said I saw potential issues it was incase of a scenario where I may decide to play two comps in a day at different clubs and if I had had a good round in the first comp before the index was refreshed at midnight knowing it is likely my index would change based on the first round (this is a big assumption of course that I may have a really good round and index would charge).

I know at my current club handicaps are always a majorly contentious issue so was wondering if there were measures in place for this scenario which there doesn’t seem to be. Part of my asking was out of concern incase the above scenario did happen and how that may be viewed by members at the club I am considering joining