PCC unrealistic or what?

[rulefan]

The new handicaps of the elite players are so low, any score which isn’t excellent can ruin a handicap, and thus the chances of qualifying for big events.
The lad I quoted played off plus 3, so isn’t even the lowest at my club, and so isn’t playing all of the biggest events (Brabazon, Lytham Trophy etc). Those who do rarely play club competitions, just travel round playing the biggies.

It's probably because they play consistently to their handicap. They wouldn't get into the 'biggies' unless they could keep their handicap low.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

PCC is imo going to be no different to CSS

It was supposed to a “truer” reflection of the conditions of the day - not sure how it could provide anything different

It’s just a new name for CSS

 

[nickjdavis]

1: One, who plays in elite singles opens, swears that the PCC is invariably higher in those events when tough conditions prevail. He gets criticised for "protecting his handicap" but is he? To me it's more an indication that the system for calculating PCC doesn't work.

2: Is the problem the fact that the higher handicaps have too much influence on the PCC? For example, someone off a high index who barely gets the ball airborne, is unlikely to be badly effected by wind yet his score is part of the calculation of PCC.

3: Whatever the problem, the fact is that a person can maintain a lower index by choosing carefully the conditions in which he plays. This shouldn't be possible.

1) The PCC is more than likely to be higher in elite singles events when tough conditions prevail because the actual spread of scoring is likely to be greater than the "statistically expected" range of scoring....there is a far narrower margin for error at that level. Also....if golfers have to travel and play unfamiliar courses (i.e. courses that they are not playing day in day out) then their scoring is naturally going to be more variable than if they were playing a course they knew.

2) Only players with an index of 36 or better will have their scores included as part of the PCC calculation.....Players with such high handicaps golfing issues are more likely to be accuracy, consistency, decision making and short game abilities...not whether they can launch the ball....the vast majority of club golfers I know at this level have few issues in getting the ball in the air. If a player cant get the ball airborne then its likely that the ball isn't carrying far which means the players going to take more shots to play a hole....so even if the wind isnt affecting them their inability to put the ball in the air will ultimately lead to higher scores which should have an upward effect on the PCC.

3) This was equally the case with the old Congu system and the CSS calculation.

 

[AmandaJR]

So far we've had two Ladies comps and PCC +3 on both. Would have gone to Reductions Only in the past so pleased their scores will count and some will start to get more realistic handicaps which will have a positive (negative?!) impact on PCC. I've also done 3 other "casual" cards where the PCC was 0 as perhaps the only cards on that day. If I was trying to keep my handicap down I don't think I'd do casual rounds. As it is they suit me fine!

 

[The Fader]

It's very unlikely that 1 score would make a difference.
IMO Vanity cappers don't really deserve to be in 'important' events.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Keeping your handicap artificially low to get into prestige events could possibly lead to the exclusion of a rapidly improving player or a golfer hitting best form. Not fair and against the spirit of the game.

 

[jim8flog]

The new handicaps of the elite players are so low, any score which isn’t excellent can ruin a handicap, and thus the chances of qualifying for big events.
The lad I quoted played off plus 3, so isn’t even the lowest at my club, and so isn’t playing all of the biggest events (Brabazon, Lytham Trophy etc). Those who do rarely play club competitions, just travel round playing the biggies.

We had a guy do this and perform very badly in all the events he was getting in to. It was obvious he could not play to the handicap he had and was just stopping others getting in to the events so he got a big enough increase in the Annual review to stop him from entering them.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Wholeheartedly agree.

Keeping your handicap artificially low to get into prestige events could possibly lead to the exclusion of a rapidly improving player or a golfer hitting best form. Not fair and against the spirit of the game.

The fact that you can keep your Handicap "artificially low" surely means that the system doesn't work. That was my point.

 

[jim8flog]

The fact that you can keep your Handicap "artificially low" surely means that the system doesn't work. That was my point.

How has the WHS changed that?

We have had to have words with low handicap players not returning cards in comps for many years. I have seen low handicap players only playing in 3 comps a year- just enough to get C status well before the new system came in to being.

 

[jim8flog]

One of the good things about the WHS is that the handicaps of elite players are now administered by The Regional Authority and not the club so hopefully they will keep an eye on it.

 

[Junior]

If PCC shows as "1" on your handicap record, does that mean that the course played 1 shot harder to Course rating ? Ie in old money, CSS went up 1 shot

 

[fundy]

PCC is imo going to be no different to CSS

It was supposed to a “truer” reflection of the conditions of the day - not sure how it could provide anything different

It’s just a new name for CSS

dont tell @Imurg

 

[Maninblack4612]

How has the WHS changed that?

It hasn't, I never said it had. Didn't work under the old system either.

 

[rulefan]

PCC is imo going to be no different to CSS

It is a completely different algorithm. It is no longer based on tables.

 

[Imurg]

It is a completely different algorithm. It is no longer based on tables.

But it is, essentially, the same..
Your score being affected by how others score.

 

[Junior]

Looking back through my last 20 scores showed that the PCC was a minus more often than a plus on my bleak, windswept course. For example, last Saturday there was a stiff breeze blowing which put around four of the par fours out of range, & I hit it further than average for my handicap. The was no PCC increase. I reckon that, without the wind, I would have been at least three shots better, I don't think the wind helped me much at all.

Some of our low handicap players won't play in medals if conditions are bad, wanting to preserve their low handicaps. One, who plays in elite singles opens, swears that the PCC is invariably higher in those events when tough conditions prevail. He gets criticised for "protecting his handicap" but is he? To me it's more an indication that the system for calculating PCC doesn't work.

Is the problem the fact that the higher handicaps have too much influence on the PCC? For example, someone off a high index who barely gets the ball airborne, is unlikely to be badly effected by wind yet his score is part of the calculation of PCC.

Whatever the problem, the fact is that a person can maintain a lower index by choosing carefully the conditions in which he plays. This shouldn't be possible.

The whole system is unrealistic. I get there are those that love WHS and see it as a way of providing a more relavent handicap , but , in reality it’s not going to happen as people won’t change.

The majority club members won’t all of a sudden start submitting scores on a more regular basis. CaptainRon won’t mind me using him as an example. We were chatting this morning and he has a qualifying score from 2018 in his record . How is that providing a relavent handicap?. Now he is going to get his handicap up to speed as he’s a decent bloke (did I really type that???) but for every person who starts submitting more cards, I wager there are 20 that won’t and that is why the WHS (in my opinion) is massively flawed and as the OP says, unrealistic. WHS should have addressed :

1. More accurate handicaps for those who didn’t have 20 cards in the last 12 months. There are several people where I play who have gone from a handicap of 20/21/22 to a playing handicaps of 27/28/29. They are not submitting scores for general play and are cleaning up in the comps. WHS will catch up, but not before all this seasons prizes are gone.

2. Handicap manipulation, It’s easier now players can submit General Play scores from away courses.

3. Low handicaps. There was a guy on a YouTube video I watched recently who had a handicap of +7!! He said he be winning on the tour if he could play to that most weeks. In a few comps already this year our low players would have had to shoot in the 50’s gross to win.

Rant over

 

[KenL]

We haven't had any comps yet (first on Thursday) but I have put in about 20 scores since whs came in. It has never moved from zero.
Be interested to see if there is any movement once our weekend comps begin.

 

[badgergm]

The fact that you can keep your Handicap "artificially low" surely means that the system doesn't work. That was my point.

This. most people on the thread aren’t getting the basic point. PCC doesn’t look like it is going to be reactive enough. Seen 7 out of 117 lower than course rating at ours and PCC of 0.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I've yet to see a fully explicit and official explanation of how PCC is calculated. Rather gives the impression that its a bit hush-hush. From what I have read, it has nothing directly to do with the weather. It seems to be based on "expected scores". We had a PCC of +1 on Saturday. Weather on the day was not difficult to play in. Lots of rain the day before and wet fairways, no run and no placing is what caused higher than "expected scores" with the course "playing long" and the wet rough quite severe. I battled on and beat my 8th best score by one shot (effectively two shots with PCC) and cut 0.2 off my HI.
All change tomorrow when I lose my very best score from my last 20. I am likely to go up a few decimals unless I match that best score of last year. I've already worked out the worst case scenario of going up by 0.6. I can limit that damage by beating what is at present my 9th best score. That is definitely do-able. PCC seems somewhat irrelevant to me in this case with regard to protecting handicap or otherwise. I just go out do to the best I can in all conditions.

Yesterday, I scored 31 points in the comp. Chipped in for birdie on 17th for 4 points. Thanks to a PCC of +2 this time, I beat my 9th best (that was set to become my 8th best) by one shot, thus limiting my upward movement of HI to just 0.5. Next 6 scores to disappear from my last 20 are not in my best 8. Therefore "the only way is down" for the HI for my next 6 rounds and I currently have a playing handicap for individual strokeplay of one shot higher than in recent weeks. Love it.

 

[Neilds]

Is WHS flawed, or is it golfers that are flawed in not ‘playing the game’ and submitting cards when they should? You can have the greatest system in the world but people will always find a way to manipulate it, doesn’t mean the system is wrong. Maybe a lot of golfers aren’t as law abiding as they think and are no better than premier league footballers?
Food for thought?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Is WHS flawed, or is it golfers that are flawed in not ‘playing the game’ and submitting cards when they should? You can have the greatest system in the world but people will always find a way to manipulate it, doesn’t mean the system is wrong. Maybe a lot of golfers aren’t as law abiding as they think and are no better than premier league footballers?
Food for thought?

There’s a significant difference between cheating and not putting in cards for every game