Patrick Reed

[rksquire]

Controversy follows Reed around, he loves being the pantomime villain and I imagine he'll roll with this. Allegations have been mentioned from his college days, but he does seem to get motivation from being knocked down. Brooks / Kostis / Smith etc. vocally condemning him - it may well affect him, but he's still pitching up at tournaments and continuing with his business - it's Reed and his entourage (wife, brother in law, etc.) against the world and that's the way he likes it. If players decide they don't want to play with him, the tour can't take Reed out of the tour; the complaining players themselves would have to withdraw. And it would also be fairly hypocritical to refuse to play with him for 'cheating' in golf when others have done much worse in their personal lives and players don't take a stand on that (I get that golf and personal lives are separate but the outrage should be equal and outspoken condemnation should at least be equal).

 

[Swango1980]

He's covered himself my backside. He has gone public calling out someone for incidents that may or may not have happened and called him a cheat. This has milage.

Yes, he has gone public (after all, his job is to go public about his opinions about golf). He has caveated it by saying he is not 100% saying he is cheating. It happens all the times, when TV presenters often throw in the word "allegedly" when discussing an accusation, even if they are strongly implying that the accusation is true.

If it was ONLY Kostis calling Reed out, then maybe you could look at the angle that it is a witch hunt and Reed could be being treated unfairly. But, this is clearly not the case. Plenty of golf pundits, players and others have voiced their opinions on Reed to various degrees, Kostis may just have been the loudest voice to date.

A lot of factors seem to exist that demonstrate that Reed may well be a cheat. However, unless Reed actually admits his intentions or you get Uri Geller in to read his mind, if one was to simply refuse to think of him as a very possible cheat, do you not think that may be a little bit like "burying your head in the sand?". What would it take for one to start thinking he could well be a cheat then?

A bigger question is, though, how many other players do this? Who are they? And, as another poster pointed out, are they simply resting the club behind ball to try and get away with it, or at least having a ready made excuse if questioned.

 

[Swango1980]

Controversy follows Reed around, he loves being the pantomime villain and I imagine he'll roll with this. Allegations have been mentioned from his college days, but he does seem to get motivation from being knocked down. Brooks / Kostis / Smith etc. vocally condemning him - it may well affect him, but he's still pitching up at tournaments and continuing with his business - it's Reed and his entourage (wife, brother in law, etc.) against the world and that's the way he likes it. If players decide they don't want to play with him, the tour can't take Reed out of the tour; the complaining players themselves would have to withdraw. And it would also be fairly hypocritical to refuse to play with him for 'cheating' in golf when others have done much worse in their personal lives and players don't take a stand on that (I get that golf and personal lives are separate but the outrage should be equal and outspoken condemnation should at least be equal).

I agree with players refusing to play with him. How? Yes, even if the PGA tried to quietly ensure they were drawn together to avoid negative publicity, what happens after the CUT and they have to play together due to similar scores? If players refused to play with him, they'd pretty much have to decide this on mass and force the PGA to decide "it is either Reed or us that will not play". That is not going to happen.

 

[Jacko_G]

Yes, he has gone public (after all, his job is to go public about his opinions about golf). He has caveated it by saying he is not 100% saying he is cheating. It happens all the times, when TV presenters often throw in the word "allegedly" when discussing an accusation, even if they are strongly implying that the accusation is true.

If it was ONLY Kostis calling Reed out, then maybe you could look at the angle that it is a witch hunt and Reed could be being treated unfairly. But, this is clearly not the case. Plenty of golf pundits, players and others have voiced their opinions on Reed to various degrees, Kostis may just have been the loudest voice to date.

A lot of factors seem to exist that demonstrate that Reed may well be a cheat. However, unless Reed actually admits his intentions or you get Uri Geller in to read his mind, if one was to simply refuse to think of him as a very possible cheat, do you not think that may be a little bit like "burying your head in the sand?". What would it take for one to start thinking he could well be a cheat then?

A bigger question is, though, how many other players do this? Who are they? And, as another poster pointed out, are they simply resting the club behind ball to try and get away with it, or at least having a ready made excuse if questioned.

The word "allegedly" doesn't suddenly exclude you from any fall out or defamation. Give me evidence please, when is Kostis going to back up these claims, that is all I'm asking, Reed may very well have history, he may be guilty of the things that Kostis says however without "proof" he is making a rod for his own back. Its very easy to jump on a band wagon and kick people when they're down.

Its been mentioned that a lot of professionals "may" possibly be guilty of improving their lie - where is the uproar about this?

Mob mentality has been mentioned and I tend to agree.

 

[Swango1980]

The word "allegedly" doesn't suddenly exclude you from any fall out or defamation. Give me evidence please, when is Kostis going to back up these claims, that is all I'm asking, Reed may very well have history, he may be guilty of the things that Kostis says however without "proof" he is making a rod for his own back. Its very easy to jump on a band wagon and kick people when they're down.

Its been mentioned that a lot of professionals "may" possibly be guilty of improving their lie - where is the uproar about this?

Mob mentality has been mentioned and I tend to agree.

As I said, what are you looking for? Obviously, the "sand" incident causes you no issues of concern. Other video clips tending to suggest possible rules breaking seem to cause you no concern. Players that know and play with him suggesting he is guilty causes you no concern. So, if a host of videos and witnesses seem to cause you no concern, what would be required? How many videos? How many witnesses?

Not having a go, but it just seems you have a very high bar before you suspect he may actually be a cheat.

As for other players? Well, once video footage of them starts coming out that suggests they are bending the rules, I have no doubt they will be scrutinised by all as well. However, so far nothing has yet emerged. Either, it is difficult to find any footage or there is a massive cover up, except that no one cares unless Reed is accused of anything.

Also, the word allegedly does help. For example, there is a huge difference by stating that it is alleged somebody did something compared to saying they actually 100% did something. If you can't prove 100%, you could be in trouble. If you simply say allegedly, you are basically not making any accusation yourself and simply commenting on what has been reported by others as a possibility. Of course, it wouldn't help a lot if you earlier said you were 100% certain on something, but I am not sure Kostis ever did (although not gone through all footage). In that video clip, he simply suggested that the lie was different to what is was originally, and in between Reed had been considering other clubs before selecting 3 wood, and that the lie changed by placing those clubs behind ball. But, he never actually said that Reed did this intentionally to improve his lie, he just highlighted that this was the outcome. I don't think I am wrong on this.

 

[Jacko_G]

High bar?

I deal in facts and evidence not hearsay and if you're willing to accept gospel and hearsay fill your boots.

Sand incident was dealt with by the Tour, what more do you want. Have a read of what Gary Woodlands posted on the subject and he was party to the conversations that took place in the scorers/officials tent.

Also there is no difference if you throw the world allegedly in front of an accusation without having evidence to back it up.

My stance has never changed, Reed may or may not be guilty of these misdemeanours however I'm still waiting for the evidence to back up the whispers.

 

[Slab]

..........
As for other players? Well, once video footage of them starts coming out that suggests they are bending the rules, I have no doubt they will be scrutinised by all as well. However, so far nothing has yet emerged. Either, it is difficult to find any footage or there is a massive cover up, except that no one cares unless Reed is accused of anything.

I realise you're chatting with Jacko but re my highlight, this is something routinely seen on live broadcast. When footage shown start to finish its tougher to find a tour pro who doesn't juggle the club behind the ball when its in the rough (they are certainly the minority)

 

[Swango1980]

I realise you're chatting with Jacko but re my highlight, this is something routinely seen on live broadcast. When footage shown start to finish its tougher to find a tour pro who doesn't juggle the club behind the ball when its in the rough (they are certainly the minority)

I agree, they do it all the time. It's just the lie has never been mentioned or talked about if it was improved. I reckon, now with all this Reed business, camera's may well start getting in for a closer look, so if players are "bending" the rules, I reckon they'll all be a little more careful now. I appreciate Reed hasn't had the benefit of this heads up, as he has been the first brought to task in the media. What will be interesting is, if any footage exists where Koepka might have been a little generous to himself in what he got away with. He must be fairly confident that that will not happen

 

[Swango1980]

High bar?

I deal in facts and evidence not hearsay and if you're willing to accept gospel and hearsay fill your boots.

Sand incident was dealt with by the Tour, what more do you want. Have a read of what Gary Woodlands posted on the subject and he was party to the conversations that took place in the scorers/officials tent.

Also there is no difference if you throw the world allegedly in front of an accusation without having evidence to back it up.

My stance has never changed, Reed may or may not be guilty of these misdemeanours however I'm still waiting for the evidence to back up the whispers.

Yeah, I heard Woodlands take on it. In fact, I'll try and hear as many viewpoints as possible to try and get a more informed opinion. I accept many players will not go accusing Reed of anything, either because they are friends, team mates or just don't want to get involved in any controversy.

I accept that you are not willing to pass judgment. And, if you were head of the USPGA Tour, you'd also need to have plenty of facts in front of you if you were to deal with it in any long term way. My issue was not about your opinion on that, that is fine. It was more to do with criticising others for their view point. For those brandishing him a cheat, I can accept how they have come to that conclusion / opinion. If this is called "mob mentality", then I don't see this should be overly criticised unless you believe either people are not entitled to an opinion without fact, or they are not allowed to express that opinion. That's what happens in forums. If somebody's opinion becomes overly extreme or personal, they can be criticised for jumping to wild conclusions completely unrelated to the incident. But, saying he is a cheat in my opinion, isn't exactly an absurd opinion.

If mob mentality is a concern (on anything), I think the mainstream media and authorities need to take responsibility how they report stories, because often "facts" are easily twisted simply to sell stories, regardless of who gets kicked into the dirt along the way. Perhaps that is why a lot of these stories on Reed have not really been talked about until now (except for rumours here and there), because the golfing media didn't want to get themselves, the tour or Reed into a mess. However, maybe had players talked up right from start. If the tour had dealt with things strongly behind closed doors. Had they clarified certain rules, such as grounding your club, and even privately reminded players what they could and couldn't do, then maybe that would give Reed and others a big heads up, and any infractions thereafter could be dealt with as harshly as required (maybe they have done this, and the players should know the rules inside out, so if there are any loopholes, the authorities need to look into that).

But, rightly or wrongly, it seems like Reed has been doing things that don't appear to follow the rules, with footage, pundits and players seemingly backing this up. What will be interesting is , what will the USPGA do about it. Maybe sit back and do nothing, let Reed deal with it and hope it all blows over, even if that means blowing over after Reed has retired, meaning he basically needs to deal with it for his entire career. Or, will they come out and investigate these accusations, and then either punish Reed accordingly, or give him the chance to prove his innocence and then stand firmly behind him? Maybe Reed and his personal entourage will need to defend himself without the help of the USPGA?

Sadly for Reed, it looks like accusations of cheating will follow him for quite some time.

 

[Jacko_G]

Not really sure where I have "criticised" anyone for having a view.

I've been consistent in asking for this so called evidence to be published if it exists. Social media makes it extremely easy for people to jump on a bandwagon and gospel somehow manifests itself into "truth" without a shred of evidence.

I've never once said I think Reed is innocent and on the same page I'm not prepared to say he's guilty simply because a commentator wants to have their say.

Same as it would be at club level. Unless you have proof it's an extremely dangerous accusation to brandish.

I'm sure I've made my point clear re requiring evidence. Good to have different views and opinions and debate without descending into a slagging match.

??️

 

[Parsaregood]

I honestly think there is enough evidence surrounding Reed for the tour to have a closer look at situations hes been in. also I think they will have someone quietly keeping an eye on him. the camera's definitely will and rightly so. I'm certainly not satisfied he has been 100% up front and with numerous accusations of cheating, stealing and even an accusation of marking in an incorrect score in a college tournament. Subsequently being asked to leave that college or leaving of his own will, its really not a state of affairs that fills you with confidence that he is truthful. ever read his sisters social media post ? It seems he is a dubious character

 

[inc0gnito]

I honestly think there is enough evidence surrounding Reed for the tour to have a closer look at situations hes been in. also I think they will have someone quietly keeping an eye on him. the camera's definitely will and rightly so. I'm certainly not satisfied he has been 100% up front and with numerous accusations of cheating, stealing and even an accusation of marking in an incorrect score in a college tournament. Subsequently being asked to leave that college or leaving of his own will, its really not a state of affairs that fills you with confidence that he is truthful. ever read his sisters social media post ? It seems he is a dubious character

His reputation has followed him all his adult golfing life. Where there’s smoke and all that.

 

[Deleted member 23344]

Kostis said that he has seen Reed improve his lie on three or four occasions. He doesn’t need video evidence to support that, although it would of course help. Most evidence given in court is verbal with witnesses saying what they saw ... they are not ignored if they don’t have supporting video evidence. Verbal testimony from witnesses is primary evidence, not hearsay. There seem to be a number of people giving primary evidence of what they have seen ... too many I suspect for Reed to risk suing anybody!

 

[USER1999]

The tour is not interested in pursuing things that put it, or it's players in a bad light. The TV companies follow the pga tour guidelines. You will not see close scrutiny of any of this going forwards.
The new pga tour tv deal will see the pga tour supply the tv feed to the host broadcaster. Anything detrimental to the tour, or it's players will not be broadcast. Welcome to the future.

 

[Swango1980]

The tour is not interested in pursuing things that put it, or it's players in a bad light. The TV companies follow the pga tour guidelines. You will not see close scrutiny of any of this going forwards.
The new pga tour tv deal will see the pga tour supply the tv feed to the host broadcaster. Anything detrimental to the tour, or it's players will not be broadcast. Welcome to the future.

It's worrying. How often do you see a wayward drive, and last picture you see is it bounding into rough with a dozen fans running right up to it as of there is a prize to the person that touches it firsst.Next thing you see is the player playing his shot from a decent lie.

What a conspiracy it would be if, the odd time, the fans gave the ball a helpful kick into a decent lie, or a bad kick depending on the player.

Of course, that wouldn't happen. If it did, I'm sure the coverage would tell us.....unless it conveniently goes missing

 

[Slab]

A player on greenside rough on 14th at WGC on camera has just lifted and lowered his club head 4 times directly behind the ball
So placed the clubhead in position, lifted it and placed it again, each time compressing the grass a little more
No one mentioned it on commentary or built gallows on 15th tee

I'm not saying Reed is right in what he does I'm saying most of them are at it and people will be selective who they choose to pull up on it

 

[User20204]

Same as it would be at club level. Unless you have proof it's an extremely dangerous accusation to brandish.

Allegedly happened at our club last year, accusations were made but unless you're prepared to stand up point that very finger straight at the accused it's a very dangerous road to go down and you the accuser may end up coming out worse.

 

[Swango1980]

Allegedly happened at our club last year, accusations were made but unless you're prepared to stand up point that very finger straight at the accused it's a very dangerous road to go down and you the accuser may end up coming out worse.

Totally agree, although at club level there isn't usually video footage seemingly highlighting the potential infraction.

In terms of other incidents relating to improving his lie in rough, I'm starting to come round to the fact that they should be treated with caution if they are being used to accuse Reed of cheating. It does seem like multiple players do this, maybe even a significant amount of players. It is easy to target Reed because of other non related incidents, simply to further tarnish his image. Fair enough , if it turns out he is 1 of a minority that does it. But, if not, it should be the application of the rule that should be evaluated, and any potential loopholes, rather than singling out Reed

 

[Gopher]

There was an incident yesterday at the WGC, it was Reed funnily enough. I think it was the first or second hole that he drove into a bush but there was an aerial about 4 feet high between his ball and the flag. Straight away he said that he aerial was in his way so he got a free drop in the clear, pitched on the green and had a birdie putt.

My issue is that he didn't even try to swing, I doubt whether he could have taken a stance in the bush, let alone take a swing. How about a rule where if the player says he would hit the man-made obstacle then let him go ahead, if he does hit it then discount the stroke and give a free drop. Reed didn't cheat, he used the rules to his advantage, but maybe the rules need tweaking, just a thought.

 

[Jacko_G]

There was an incident yesterday at the WGC, it was Reed funnily enough. I think it was the first or second hole that he drove into a bush but there was an aerial about 4 feet high between his ball and the flag. Straight away he said that he aerial was in his way so he got a free drop in the clear, pitched on the green and had a birdie putt.

My issue is that he didn't even try to swing, I doubt whether he could have taken a stance in the bush, let alone take a swing. How about a rule where if the player says he would hit the man-made obstacle then let him go ahead, if he does hit it then discount the stroke and give a free drop. Reed didn't cheat, he used the rules to his advantage, but maybe the rules need tweaking, just a thought.

Standard line of sight. Not cheating.