D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Have just had a text from our pro and the other pro didn't say a word. He just played his shot ? I'm sure one of them said something ?
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
not an unusual response in such situations; the other pro will know very well that if he had requested the player to leave his ball he was in breach of the rules.
the whole issue has become quite a difficult one on all tours (nothing as obvious as described here obviously) but next time you watch note just how few players will 'go out of their way to remove a ball that may assist another player ie balls chipped a few feet past the hole are frequently left on the basis of you help me / I'll help you. the players tend to respond with speed of play defences very quickly when queried!
decision 22-7 tries to encapsulate the issue and provide guidance to ROs
in this particular situation, where the whole group are a team, it would be interesting to establish whether the player playing has the same responsibility as the others in the group - 22-1 doesn't contemplate the whole group being one team!
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
G7FORE
Newbie
A player can ask his team partner to leave the ball if its matchplay (as only one ball scores in the team all be it they are playing 2 balls) its up to the other team to say i want you to mark that. if its strokeplay then no-one can be asked to leave the ball as all balls are in play and will incur a penalty of 2 shots
Last edited:
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
the rules require a fellow competitor to move a ball that could possibly assist - 22/7 makes things clear.
Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball is in a position to assist the play of a fellow-competitor and the competitor is in a position to lift the ball under Rule 22-1 without delaying the fellow-competitor's play. However, the competitor does not take any action to invoke the Rule. Would a referee be justified in intervening and requesting the competitor to invoke the Rule to protect himself and the rest of the field?
A.Yes. If the competitor were to object, there would be strong evidence of an agreement not to lift the ball for the purpose of assisting the fellow-competitor in breach of Rule 22-1. The referee would be justified in so advising the competitors involved and warning that failure to lift the ball would result in disqualification under Rule 22-1.
The problems here revolve around the status of the player (pro) with regard to the ball (he's on the same team with one hat on and is a FC with another. It is obvious that the player realises that the ball can assist him so I would contend that he is responsible for his partners action (leaving the ball that can assist him) and would suggest that 31-7 and, more specifically, 31-8 support that.
31-8 states that "If a competitor’s breach of a Rule assists his partner's play, the partner incurs the applicable penalty in addition to any penalty incurred by the competitor." The player (Pro) knew that his partner was required to remove that ball!
If required I would rule that way, but I would refer it 'upstairs' for confirmation!
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
yes, because the only parties affected are the opponents and they are present on the green at the time.
however, this is not matchplay, and there aren't even fellow competitors on the green; only partners. (well there are probably people with both hats on but that doesn't help) and there are no shot penalties associated with the scenario set out in the opening post. the players stroke is made from off the green.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Yep. Definitely a DQ breach!
22-1 (see earlier post by Twire) still applies!
Unfortunately, but not untypically, quite possibly NOT the case!
22-1 (see earlier post by Twire) still applies!
Last edited:
upsidedown
Tour Winner
This throws up another question I've been mulling over for a while so will start a new thread...... When do you mark your ball on the green ?
G7FORE
Newbie
You can mark the ball at anytime. a player say 100yrds out can ask a ball on the green to be marked if he feels it interferes or you feel your assisting him. i suppose its not done often due to time.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
i thought it was good etiquette to leave a ball that might help a player. obviously no communication has to take place. the other play may request the ball to be marked.
rosecott
Money List Winner
Why would you do that?
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
I'm fairly sure he was fishing with that one, I hope he was anyway !!
muttleee
Tour Rookie
I would like to think no one would be daft enough to mark a ball that was sitting on the lip!
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
I had been told that you cant request a ball to be left or ask would you like it left.
I assumed that it was good etiquette to leave a ball as ducan alludes to in this post.
''the whole issue has become quite a difficult one on all tours (nothing as obvious as described here obviously) but next time you watch note just how few players will 'go out of their way to remove a ball that may assist another player ie balls chipped a few feet past the hole are frequently left on the basis of you help me / I'll help you. the players tend to respond with speed of play defences very quickly when queried!'
I never charge onto a green to mark my ball after I have chipped close unless requested to do so or its directly on the next persons line.
where do you draw the line that a ball may help the next man? 1 foot, 3feet, 5 feet or even 10 feet past the hole?
a few times someone has said, "if you leave that ball there it might help me". in these cases I have replied "not since you said that" so I mark the ball before the next shot is taken.
have I got this wrong?
I assumed that it was good etiquette to leave a ball as ducan alludes to in this post.
''the whole issue has become quite a difficult one on all tours (nothing as obvious as described here obviously) but next time you watch note just how few players will 'go out of their way to remove a ball that may assist another player ie balls chipped a few feet past the hole are frequently left on the basis of you help me / I'll help you. the players tend to respond with speed of play defences very quickly when queried!'
I never charge onto a green to mark my ball after I have chipped close unless requested to do so or its directly on the next persons line.
where do you draw the line that a ball may help the next man? 1 foot, 3feet, 5 feet or even 10 feet past the hole?
a few times someone has said, "if you leave that ball there it might help me". in these cases I have replied "not since you said that" so I mark the ball before the next shot is taken.
have I got this wrong?
evahakool
Challenge Tour Pro
I had been told that you cant request a ball to be left or ask would you like it left.
I assumed that it was good etiquette to leave a ball as ducan alludes to in this post.
''the whole issue has become quite a difficult one on all tours (nothing as obvious as described here obviously) but next time you watch note just how few players will 'go out of their way to remove a ball that may assist another player ie balls chipped a few feet past the hole are frequently left on the basis of you help me / I'll help you. the players tend to respond with speed of play defences very quickly when queried!'
I never charge onto a green to mark my ball after I have chipped close unless requested to do so or its directly on the next persons line.
where do you draw the line that a ball may help the next man? 1 foot, 3feet, 5 feet or even 10 feet past the hole?
a few times someone has said, "if you leave that ball there it might help me". in these cases I have replied "not since you said that" so I mark the ball before the next shot is taken.
have I got this wrong?
I don't think this has anything to do with etiquette , why would you do anything that might help another player.
Green Bay Hacker
Journeyman Pro
I had a situation today where there were 2 balls on the green within 3 feet of the pin, a third player was chipping onto the green and neither of the balls was blocking his shot towards the pin but they could have helped stop his ball if he over hit it. One of the players who was already on the green then said do you want it marked or left. I said you can't ask that.
Was I right?
Was I right?
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
If any player feels that a ball might assist play they may mark and lift it or request to have it marked and lifted. They may not request to have it left. So to ask someone if they want a ball left in the instance is a no no. It would imply that by leaving it it may offer assistance and another player asking it to be left could be interpreted as agreement to leave the ball to provide assistance.
You as a player that considers the ball might assist are also in a position to request they are marked and lifted even though your ball and play isn't directly effected.
However under the rule if you are playing up to the hole and see a ball that might assist you there is no obligation to ask for it to be marked and could use it for assistance as long as there is no agreement between 2 players to use the ball for that purpose and both balls aren't on the green.
The problem comes, not from the chance a ball might assist, it's from an agreement between players to leave the ball to assist.
Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:
a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or
b. Have any other ball lifted.
A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).
In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.
In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.
Note: When another ball is in motion, a ball that might influence the movement of the ball in motion must not be lifted.
Last edited:
Green Bay Hacker
Journeyman Pro
It was tough to call but I read it as though 'it may help you if you don't get them marked'
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
If you read it that way you could have requested that the balls be marked if you had wanted, but you didn't have to. Certainly correct to point it out though.
Green Bay Hacker
Journeyman Pro
Felt a bit uncomfortable afterwards as it was the vice captain who asked about the balls and I wasn't totally sure of myself.
