My swing thoughts - by James

[JustOne]

Agree James and found today that a focus on my hips "probably" makes me spin them even more. I'm hitting everything but my driver really well so can't complain too much but....hitting everything really well would be nice!

It's just part of the process Amanda. You could try moving the ball more forwards or more back, teeing it higher or lower, standing closer to it or further away - and find something that works without having to change your swing. The question is once you find that perfect place will you turn up with the same swing next time you play? Just the process......

If you change something for the betterment but then can't hit the ball you're at a crossroads, straight back to how you were swinging?.. or make the change. Generally it's revert straight back to the old swing and seek more advice My choice was to change as much as i could.. I didn't want my old swing one little bit, it was like an old car that gave me nothing but trouble and I didn't even enjoy driving it!

 

[bobmac]

James, do you think it's acceptable to swing in between the 2 red lines?



I used to be able to make these pictures bigger

 

[Foxholer]

Great post james.

I would just like to add that in the One Plane swing the left upper arm needs to be clamped to the chest (Pec) in the backswing and the right arm the same in the downswing. This helps to prevent an Over the Top move and assists to keep you connected so the rotational forces travel out to the club.

I'd challenge anyone to do exactly this and hit the ball a decent distance! But staying 'connected' is all important for both styles, or even Moe Norman's single plane swing - the epitome of a one plane swing!

To me, Hogan's fundamentals cover it all. All the differences come down to physical attributes, rhythm, tempo and timing - or variations on those descriptions.

 

[AmandaJR]

It's just part of the process Amanda. You could try moving the ball more forwards or more back, teeing it higher or lower, standing closer to it or further away - and find something that works without having to change your swing. The question is once you find that perfect place will you turn up with the same swing next time you play? Just the process......

If you change something for the betterment but then can't hit the ball you're at a crossroads, straight back to how you were swinging?.. or make the change. Generally it's revert straight back to the old swing and seek more advice My choice was to change as much as i could.. I didn't want my old swing one little bit, it was like an old car that gave me nothing but trouble and I didn't even enjoy driving it!

Last couple of lessons have been on my driver. First one identified I was starting the downswing inside but then letting my hands/arms move forwards to the ball. So we worked on feeling my hands stayed closer to me which got me hitting it off the middle. By the next lesson I was hitting a few high push/fades and had started to really open the club - how the hell I got it remotely square by impact was a flipping miracle (literally). So we worked on the club face through the swing and my coach applied "reverse pressure" which really got me to feel where it needed to be. Hit some nice draws and the odd hook which was fine but it also got me way too steep. Worked with the inflatable thingy behind me which I had to bring the club under but it remains a tough one for me to achieve with any consistency and can see where I've bashed the tee bag flat into the ground never mind the ball flight.

Next lesson is on Monday. We have also worked on my impact position and a focus on my left knee so it doesn't collapse inwards so much. That helps me tremendously with my irons and I think focussing on holding firm on the way back, then shifting that towards the target from the top has the same effect as the hip slide...then I get the driver in my hand and swing way too long...aaaggghhh!!!

 

[JustOne]

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And you're getting a headache reading my posts?






Agree with the left knee, you don't want it to collapse.

 

[bobmac]

Thats a lot of thoughts Amanda

 

[AmandaJR]

That has been over the course of 3 lessons. Hands closer - got it. Left knee - got it. Club face - not yet got it!

Irons - only thought is left knee and has made a huge difference in terms of consistency and distance.
Driver - trying to work on all 3...perhaps that's why I'm struggling and need to prioritise BUT did work for a few weeks on the hands and consistently off the middle so felt ready to move onto the direction...

 

[JustOne]

James, do you think it's acceptable to swing in between the 2 red lines?

View attachment 3940

I was coming to that in my next bit Bob. In brief the top line is more inclined to represent a 2-plane swing in my opinion, I'd rather see the top line lower.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'd challenge anyone to do exactly this and hit the ball a decent distance! But staying 'connected' is all important for both styles, or even Moe Norman's single plane swing - the epitome of a one plane swing!

To me, Hogan's fundamentals cover it all. All the differences come down to physical attributes, rhythm, tempo and timing - or variations on those descriptions.

Dont want to get into [/B] 'Exactly that introduces too much detail for golf swings. I am talking of the concept a golf would have of keeping the upper arm in contact with the chest, to exaggerate it a bit pushes home the concept.

Here is someone who has a similar idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OhaLgIQiM

This guy also hits it a fair distance with his upper arms well connected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgL2THhn4ro

 

[StrangelyBrown]

The left arm doesn't go high, so the socket doesn't rotate and as such can have a stronger grip without the fear of hooking as the body squares up the clubface using the power of it's rotation with fairly passive hands, wrists and arms.

I like the sound of this, fewer moving parts, less to go wrong.

I would say that turning the club more than vertical is bad, preferably (as you say) a little turned down to the ball seeing as I've already said I prefer the plane of the club (and subsequently the left arm) to be more 'medium' than high.

It's another thing I'm working on, especially with the driver. I'm trying to get the feeling that I've got the club face pointing at the ball during the initial take away.

 

[Phil2511]

That's similar to how my pro teaches.

 

[Foxholer]

Dont want to get into [/B] 'Exactly that introduces too much detail for golf swings. I am talking of the concept a golf would have of keeping the upper arm in contact with the chest, to exaggerate it a bit pushes home the concept.

Here is someone who has a similar idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OhaLgIQiM

This guy also hits it a fair distance with his upper arms well connected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgL2THhn4ro

It was the exactly that was key to my assertion.

Given that Ritter's vid absolutely contradicts your statement about the arms being clamped to the chest (at least my interpretation of what clamped means), I'll consider that an agreement.

And I'm pretty sure Tiger didn't hit that shot anywhere near as far as he can. It was only a 3/4 back-swing, so was a particular shot for a particular distance, not his standard 220yd 7-iron.

Couple of interesting vids in the post vid display though. I might check out the warm-up exercise one from bottom-right one! I don't think I'll be using the same gear though!

Emphasising/exaggerating (certainly exaggerating) things about the golf swing rarely works (apart from effects) imo unless the recipient of the info knows that it's an exaggeration. More often, it causes problems - which I'm certain would have happened if someone took your 'advice' literally. So well-meaning as it may have been, it was, imo, very bad advice, which is why I replied.

Simply providing the link to the Ritter vid on connection would have been a much better way imo.

 

[JustOne]

2) Swing plane, cont....

In a 2-plane swing the shoulders turn flatter, pointing towards a point on the ground some 10-15ft past the ball, the left arm gets HIGHER than the plane of the shoulders (above the brown line) and the hands get to the higher green line.




In a 1-plane swing the shoulders turn steeper, pointing towards a point on the ground some 2-4ft past the ball, the left arm doesn't get above the plane of the shoulders (on or below the brown line) and the hands don't get anywhere near the top green line.




So we can see in this next picture that in a 2-plane swing the hands will be heading for the RED dot at the top whilst in the 1-plane swing the hands will head for the PINK dot



As the hands are heading less UP and more DEEP (more 'backwards' so to speak) the hand path on the takeaway is more inwards for a 1-plane swing (the bend in the pink line is more 'back' from the bend in the red line) in other words the hands just rotate naturally on the takeaway in an arc as the shoulders rotate. It's not easy to do this if you set up with your hands tight to your thighs... but they shouldn't be as you should be in a better posture to start with! (a 2-plane swinger will stand more upright and potentially have the hands closer... an extreme would be Jim Furyk, very upright and very close hands.

And finally on swing plane I want to record my thoughts on the beauty of the 1-plane swing (so I remember why I like it)...

When it's time for the downswing there is a weightshift in both swing styles however in the 1-plane swing this weighshift is enough to drop the club onto plane, with the left arm already connected to the torso you're good to go.... your connected and on plane so you can now JUST SWING... and you can swing EVERYTHING, no need to fire the hips or spin them out or have the shoulders trailing, no x-factor or stuff like that the hips and arms can go TOGETHER, you're on plane and swinging from the INSIDE just go for it!

and it looks like this....hips and shoulders rotate together on the downswing...

[video=youtube;4DgdhuiSidA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DgdhuiSidA[/video]

You can't do this with the 2-plane swing as you're not on plane and you're not connected, there's actually a delay because your shoulders are flat and your left arm isn't connected to your chest... you cannot swing both hips and shoulders at the same time as the club will go directly outside the correct swingpath (slices) when your hands are high, so you have to find the lower plane and that requires a big drop of the hands away from the ball and a fast rotation of the hips so that the arms can find their path after having to rotate upwards... it goes on.. but it's so complicated to even write about I don't even want to think about it, let alone try to do it.

 

[Foxholer]

James,

While it's quite likely (though not guaranteed) that the 1-plane swing could provide a more consistent swing for many golfers. However, as neither style is actually on plane at the end of the back-swing and both have to 'drop' onto down-swing plane (a plane shift), I believe you are are exaggerating the 'benefits' of the 1-plane one somewhat - or at least the 'deficiencies'of the 2-plane one. Both require timing - of/before the twist and throw for 1PS.

And the way in which a 1PS-er can still have a certain amount of 'above the shoulder' (12* I believe) arm angle grates somewhat - purely on a definition basis. I'd sooner see it defined by other characteristics - it may in fact, be so defined.

 

[SocketRocket]

Simply providing the link to the Ritter vid on connection would have been a much better way imo.

Forget the 'Clamped' it was not meant to be taken as literal as you take it. 'held' would be a better description.

Ritter? Did I make a link to him, if I did it was a mistake. I linked one from Jim Maclean and one of Tiger

 

[Foxholer]

Ritter? Did I make a link to him, if I did it was a mistake. I linked one from Jim Maclean and one of Tiger

Oops - Sorry, 'my bad!'

Didn't recognise JM. He seems about 25 years older in the (Revolution) vids I have of him. A Ritter vid was at the top of items on the right, along with other JM ones, so I made a (wrong, but maybe excusable) assumption!

 

[SocketRocket]

Oops - Sorry, 'my bad!'

Didn't recognise JM. He seems about 25 years older in the (Revolution) vids I have of him. A Ritter vid was at the top of items on the right, along with other JM ones, so I made a (wrong, but maybe excusable) assumption!

Forgiven this time :thup:

 

[JustOne]

James,

While it's quite likely (though not guaranteed) that the 1-plane swing could provide a more consistent swing for many golfers. However, as neither style is actually on plane at the end of the back-swing and both have to 'drop' onto down-swing plane (a plane shift), I believe you are are exaggerating the 'benefits' of the 1-plane one somewhat - or at least the 'deficiencies'of the 2-plane one. Both require timing - of/before the twist and throw for 1PS.

And the way in which a 1PS-er can still have a certain amount of 'above the shoulder' (12* I believe) arm angle grates somewhat - purely on a definition basis. I'd sooner see it defined by other characteristics - it may in fact, be so defined.

Yes, I'm a BIT biased. It's alright to talk about what the pros do or don't do, we'd all like to swing like Adam Scott or Ernie Els and we use them all the time for examples but something stupid low like 1% of golfers ever make it to CAT1, 99% of golfers need more help so wouldn't it make sense to teach the easiest way possible? For me that puts a 1-plane swing ahead of a 2-plane swing in terms of learning. We're not going to be on the tour any time soon so isn't it important to make the game more enjoyable, more fulfilling... and less complex?

We could split hairs all day whether a player should have a cupped, flat or bowed wrist at the top of their swing or a weak, neutral or strong grip but in reality the majority of golfers face far more basic problems like fanning the club open on their backswing, swinging over the top or rolling their wrists over through impact. For me the 1-plane swing comes out a winner, although I have no problem with someone choosing the hard way

 

[bobmac]

In not so many words, swing between the 2 lines and keep your head still ?

(I lowered the upper line for you a bit)

 

[Foxholer]

In not so many words, .... and keep your head still ?

Bob.

Very surprised to see/hear using that phrase!

'Quiet' perhaps, 'under control' maybe, but not 'still'. Very dangerous!