My swing thoughts - by James

[Alex1975]

If golf were too easy it would be boring

Yes the club goes up a little steeper than it comes down, and the steeper you take it the more it has to come down. It's typically thought of as a reverse loop where it goes up steep then moves away from the ball as it shallows.... as the hips slide.

So why go up steep then? just to stop the club getting stuck? I ask as surly a flat take away is a swing fault?!

 

[JustOne]

So why go up steep then? just to stop the club getting stuck? I ask as surly a flat take away is a swing fault?!

As I said, the steeper you go up the more it has to come down, on that basis my thoughts would be that it makes no sense to take it up too steep, but likewise too flat is bad/awkward so why do that either? I would consider MEDIUM to be ideal and that's getting into 1 plane VS 2 plane which I'll be posting my thoughts on later... can't post it all in one go (only type with 2 fingers)

 

[Alex1975]

As I said, the steeper you go up the more it has to come down, on that basis my thoughts would be that it makes no sense to take it up too steep, but likewise too flat is bad/awkward so why do that either? I would consider MEDIUM to be ideal and that's getting into 1 plane VS 2 plane which I'll be posting my thoughts on later... can't post it all in one go (only type with 2 fingers)

Ahh yes but I am talking about club shaft plane not shoulder plane.....

 

[Hobbit]

Fantastic thread James. Post #1 captures both my good and bad swings. Post #11, Robert Rock, is what I continue to hope for.

Best swing thread for ages...

 

[AmandaJR]

Well that's my range focus for today sorted - thanks James. Have been way too steep with my driver lately and took a while to figure out why I was nailing them off the middle but surprised when they dropped down and not the distance I usually get. Heaven alone knows how much backspin I've been getting on them! The occasional one I get it right as I think "shallower" but think I am inclined to spin my hips rather than slide. Played the past couple of days with higher handicap ladies and a lot of times my drive was only just ahead of theirs as it dropped like a stone but massive difference in club selection and distance with every other shot but driver.

Will hopefully report back later with good results...

 

[JustOne]

2) Swing plane

My thoughts on swing plane are as follows... there are many, but some are easier to hit the ball with than others. As such in my own little world I'd choose the easiest. I don't want to take the club up TOO steep as I'd have to bring it back down again (shallow it out) which adds a pointless complexity into the swing. Everyone knows Jim Furyk's swing, yes he delivers the club nicely, which is paramount, but it's a swing that you wouldn't necessarily teach as STANDARD or indeed want to be taught... although you'd accept the winnings and a life on Tour if it was guaranteed!! Furyk's swing is a disconnected swing where the left arm goes up in the air and away from the chest, as such it's NOT EASY to reconnect as that move requires a delay in the downswing, so I'd rather see a more standard swing... (so that puts Furyk's swing to bed once and for all).

So what is a good plane? Well let's start with a bad one....

From a down the line view this guy (whoever he is) has the clubhead low and disappearing behind his knees, that is far too low. From that position he's going to have to lift the club UP to get it on plane... and then lower it again (ironically) as he slides his hips towards the target for power... lots of unnecessary moves, hard to time, hard to synchronize and a plethora of subsequent potential problems/compensations.... this is probably the most common position for club golfers.




So let's take a look at a couple of good ones...

Firstly Luke Donald, his clubhead doesn't bisect the back of his knee, it basically 'hits' him in the ribcage when viewed down the line




And (surprisingly, just for a laugh) here is Charlie Wi, his clubhead also hit's him in the ribcage so to speak.




In my opinion there's no need to go higher than either of these, you could, or you might have to if you have some physical restriction but if it's unnecessary then why bother adding complexity to your swing. As I say, if you want to you can, but it doesn't fit with my thoughts on the golf swing, which is what I'm posting. We all love Luke donald

So why does the club golfer hit such a bad position in his backswing? I'll cover that next....

 

[JustOne]

Well that's my range focus for today sorted - thanks James. Have been way too steep with my driver lately and took a while to figure out why I was nailing them off the middle but surprised when they dropped down and not the distance I usually get.

Amanda, these are just my swing thoughts, that said hopefully they'll help anyone's swing. If there are 20 pieces to a swing then I'd say most great golfers do at least 15 of them,. maybe more, but rarely less. I don't know which parts you may or may not be doing so would always recommend that you post a vid (if a second pair of eyes isn't available). Some pieces of the swing compliment each other, and some don't... eg a cupped wrist may work well for a 2-plane swing but less likely for a 1-plane swing.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

James,

Some good stuff in there but............

I'm concerned you havn't made it clear what swing method you have used as examples on the clips. You are encouraging quite a few on here to use S & T, fair enough, but these clips are showing fairly conventional swings. I'm worried that some of the guys on here without a good understanding of swing mechanics could end up a bit confused.

Do all the points you have brought up on this thread apply to both techniques or only one of the other?

Not raising the point for myself as a use a coach who I have 100% faith in and have a clear idea of what I'm trying to do (not enough talent to acieve it) but for the guys on here who need the help of our forum 'experts'

 

[JustOne]

I think I just got that in with my post above probably as you were typing saving_par :thup:

For example in the Camillo Villegas reference he moves his weight a lot to the right so he has to make a mahooosive hip slide to get back even close to the ball... someone who is more centered would also slide.. just less. Even someone like Alvaro Quiros who claims not to slide at all DOES, it's just less. I can't cover every eventuality, these are just my swing thoughts on the basis that I can use them as reference when helping people and have seen a lot of great vids lately that I'd like to have in one place... and people can easily choose not to read this one post.

 

[Alex1975]

2) Swing plane

My thoughts on swing plane are as follows... there are many, but some are easier to hit the ball with than others. As such in my own little world I'd choose the easiest. I don't want to take the club up TOO steep as I'd have to bring it back down again (shallow it out) which adds a pointless complexity into the swing. Everyone knows Jim Furyk's swing, yes he delivers the club nicely, which is paramount, but it's a swing that you wouldn't necessarily teach as STANDARD or indeed want to be taught... although you'd accept the winnings and a life on Tour if it was guaranteed!! Furyk's swing is a disconnected swing where the left arm goes up in the air and away from the chest, as such it's NOT EASY to reconnect as that move requires a delay in the downswing, so I'd rather see a more standard swing... (so that puts Furyk's swing to bed once and for all).

So what is a good plane? Well let's start with a bad one....

From a down the line view this guy (whoever he is) has the clubhead low and disappearing behind his knees, that is far too low. From that position he's going to have to lift the club UP to get it on plane... and then lower it again (ironically) as he slides his hips towards the target for power... lots of unnecessary moves, hard to time, hard to synchronize and a plethora of subsequent potential problems/compensations.... this is probably the most common position for club golfers.

View attachment 3932


So let's take a look at a couple of good ones...

Firstly Luke Donald, his clubhead doesn't bisect the back of his knee, it basically 'hits' him in the ribcage when viewed down the line

View attachment 3933


And (surprisingly, just for a laugh) here is Charlie Wi, his clubhead also hit's him in the ribcage so to speak.

View attachment 3934


In my opinion there's no need to go higher than either of these, you could, or you might have to if you have some physical restriction but if it's unnecessary then why bother adding complexity to your swing. As I say, if you want to you can, but it doesn't fit with my thoughts on the golf swing, which is what I'm posting. We all love Luke donald

So why does the club golfer hit such a bad position in his backswing? I'll cover that next....

I would be interested in this exact thing but from the top, any examples?

 

[Alex1975]

2) Swing plane

My thoughts on swing plane are as follows... there are many, but some are easier to hit the ball with than others. As such in my own little world I'd choose the easiest. I don't want to take the club up TOO steep as I'd have to bring it back down again (shallow it out) which adds a pointless complexity into the swing. Everyone knows Jim Furyk's swing, yes he delivers the club nicely, which is paramount, but it's a swing that you wouldn't necessarily teach as STANDARD or indeed want to be taught... although you'd accept the winnings and a life on Tour if it was guaranteed!! Furyk's swing is a disconnected swing where the left arm goes up in the air and away from the chest, as such it's NOT EASY to reconnect as that move requires a delay in the downswing, so I'd rather see a more standard swing... (so that puts Furyk's swing to bed once and for all).

So what is a good plane? Well let's start with a bad one....

From a down the line view this guy (whoever he is) has the clubhead low and disappearing behind his knees, that is far too low. From that position he's going to have to lift the club UP to get it on plane... and then lower it again (ironically) as he slides his hips towards the target for power... lots of unnecessary moves, hard to time, hard to synchronize and a plethora of subsequent potential problems/compensations.... this is probably the most common position for club golfers.

View attachment 3932


So let's take a look at a couple of good ones...

Firstly Luke Donald, his clubhead doesn't bisect the back of his knee, it basically 'hits' him in the ribcage when viewed down the line

View attachment 3933


And (surprisingly, just for a laugh) here is Charlie Wi, his clubhead also hit's him in the ribcage so to speak.

View attachment 3934


In my opinion there's no need to go higher than either of these, you could, or you might have to if you have some physical restriction but if it's unnecessary then why bother adding complexity to your swing. As I say, if you want to you can, but it doesn't fit with my thoughts on the golf swing, which is what I'm posting. We all love Luke donald

So why does the club golfer hit such a bad position in his backswing? I'll cover that next....

I would be interested in this example but from the position at the top of the swing if you have a view on that please...

 

[Alex1975]

It wont let me reply with quotes. RE:#26

I would be interested in your last posting with photos but from the top of the back swing if you have any examples or views please.

 

[StrangelyBrown]

The photos of Luke Donald and Charlie Wi have highlighted another backswing flaw of mine (and maybe of others).

I tend to open the club up on the backswing, where the toe would be pointing straight up halfway back. These images show that I should have the feeling of hooding the clubface on the backswing and not spin it open as much.

Good thread this :thup:

 

[bobmac]

So a backswing that is too flat is not good and a backswing that is too upright is not good either.
No arguements from me so far :thup:

 

[StrangelyBrown]

The piccies of LD and CW highlight that I probably open up the club too much on the backswing.

 

[JustOne]

No arguements from me so far :thup:

I'm not going to argue at all Bob. As they are my thoughts I can't be wrong. I will however discuss anything you care to mention, highlight or disagree with of course.

 

[JustOne]

I tend to open the club up on the backswing, where the toe would be pointing straight up halfway back. These images show that I should have the feeling of hooding the clubface on the backswing and not spin it open as much.

That isn't necessarily a flaw SB, it depends on your swing. A 2-plane swing is predominently an ARM swing and as such when we try to swing (or lift) our arms up above the plane of our shoulders the socket naturally rotates. A 2-plane swinger would subsequently have a (preferred) neutral grip as they have different moves to perform in the downswing, whereas a 1-plane swing is a BODY swing, far less moving parts. The left arm doesn't go high, so the socket doesn't rotate and as such can have a stronger grip without the fear of hooking as the body squares up the clubface using the power of it's rotation with fairly passive hands, wrists and arms.

I would say that turning the club more than vertical is bad, preferably (as you say) a little turned down to the ball seeing as I've already said I prefer the plane of the club (and subsequently the left arm) to be more 'medium' than high.

 

[SocketRocket]

Great post james.

I would just like to add that in the One Plane swing the left upper arm needs to be clamped to the chest (Pec) in the backswing and the right arm the same in the downswing. This helps to prevent an Over the Top move and assists to keep you connected so the rotational forces travel out to the club.

 

[JustOne]

2) Swing plane, cont...

To understand the takeaway we need to understand the swing plane itself. There are two TYPES of swing called a 1-plane and a 2-plane swing.. these are to do with whether the left arm is LEVEL with the tilt of the shoulders at the top of the swing (1-plane) or whether the left arm goes HIGHER than the tilt of the shoulders at the top of the swing (2-plane),...

however ALL SWINGS have 2 planes because we have to get the club from swinging around our bodies at waist height to swinging around at shoulder height.... and again, as discussed we use a hip slide to drop somewhat to the lower plane in the downswing.

If I take Luke Donald again as an example you can see the plane of the CLUB at address if the head were to strike the ball..




And here is the second plane at the top of the swing where the club has now gone to swinging around his shoulders instead of his waist....




Getting rid of the confusing part it looks like this... two planes, we get the club up to the top plane... then hope to get somewhere near the lower plane on the way down...




In changing from these two planes the clubhead will just follow wherever it's lead to... so it creates it's OWN plane, the true path of the club....the PINK LINE



and this is where we go wrong in the takeaway as the perception is that we need to get the clubhead swinging around behind us on the 'waist plane' rather than switching from the 'waist plane' to the 'shoulder plane' and we get the club stuck somewhere behind our thighs.


There are no straight lines on the arc that we take the club away from the ball, if we try to take the club back away from the ball in a straight line it would make our hands move AWAY from our bodies and we don't want that. There is no 'low and slow' we don't swing the clubhead, we swing the GRIP. The tail does not wag the dog. When you make your takeaway consider that YOU are swinging the club, not it swinging you. All you need to do is get the GRIP of the club to where you want as it arrives at parallel to the ground... there's only a grip in your hands, no club, no clubhead. You're not allowing the clubhead to sneak it's way around behind your knees... you have the grip end! you control it.

Here's a video I like by Mark Crossfield,... more simple to understand than what I just wrote! No mention of low and slow, taking the club back in a straight line yadayada..

[video=youtube;0n5ztQ_7qvY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n5ztQ_7qvY[/video]

From this parallel to the ground position the club is going to go up somewhat onto the SHOULDER plane.

 

[AmandaJR]

Amanda, these are just my swing thoughts, that said hopefully they'll help anyone's swing. If there are 20 pieces to a swing then I'd say most great golfers do at least 15 of them,. maybe more, but rarely less. I don't know which parts you may or may not be doing so would always recommend that you post a vid (if a second pair of eyes isn't available). Some pieces of the swing compliment each other, and some don't... eg a cupped wrist may work well for a 2-plane swing but less likely for a 1-plane swing.

Agree James and found today that a focus on my hips "probably" makes me spin them even more. I'm hitting everything but my driver really well so can't complain too much but....hitting everything really well would be nice!

The 1 plane 2 plane thingy has hurt my head so will come back to that when the painkillers kick in