Minimum Holes

[Backsticks]

You are basically arguing against basic mathematics, as was simply put by wjemather. This seems to be very much a case of you arguing black is white?

18 holes is better than 9 holes. 17 holes is better than 9 holes. 16 holes is better than 9 holes.....you see where I am going with this?

I do. But think you are drawing a conclusion that you are not necessarily actually reaching.

To extend your above, and earlier 1 hole analogy in the other direction :

you might conclude 1000 holes is better than 18. But without knowing to what accuracy that the extra 982 holes makes to a HI calculation, you cannot say that there is a HI accuracy improvement by play 1000 hole rounds. Similarly withou knowing the loss from only playing 9 rather than 13, on cannot say that the additional 4 holes add any meaningful accuracy.

 

[wjemather]

I guess because the rules of hanidcapping say for a handicap counting round it must be 9 or 18. 10 is only allowed with an acceptable reason. There is nothing documented (and perhaps this shouldn't be required but clearly is) that an acceptable reason for not completing 18 is that we were playing to the rules of golf (i.e. # of holes determined by committee).

That isn't what the RoH say at all (see #54).

 

[Swango1980]

I do. But think you are drawing a conclusion that you are not necessarily actually reaching.

To extend your above, and earlier 1 hole analogy in the other direction :

you might conclude 1000 holes is better than 18. But without knowing to what accuracy that the extra 982 holes makes to a HI calculation, you cannot say that there is a HI accuracy improvement by play 1000 hole rounds. Similarly withou knowing the loss from only playing 9 rather than 13, on cannot say that the additional 4 holes add any meaningful accuracy.

Actually, basic mathematics does say 1000 holes is better than 18. Of course, the barrier of that would be practical, as obviously a player is not going to play a 1000 hole round, without at least becoming severely physically and mentally fatigued.

 

[D-S]

This whole saga could be cleared up by a simple, definitive ruling from EG. Has this been sought?

 

[Swango1980]

This whole saga could be cleared up by a simple, definitive ruling from EG. Has this been sought?

I think the OP said they were unable to do so, as the County Union had to be used first. And, the County Union appear to disagree what most of the informed think in here, but they agree with the Club. So, the Club have no incentive to go beyond the Union, if they are getting the "incorrect" response they were expecting?

 

[Colin L]

I guess because the rules of hanidcapping say for a handicap counting round it must be 9 or 18. 10 is only allowed with an acceptable reason. There is nothing documented (and perhaps this shouldn't be required but clearly is) that an acceptable reason for not completing 18 is that we were playing to the rules of golf (i.e. # of holes determined by committee).

Could you reference the bit in red for me, please? It's not what is said in 2.1 of the WHS Rules and 2.2 directs that national associations may determine the minimum. That determination is in 2.2 of the CONGU Guidance document already quoted from:
For a score to be acceptable as an 18-hole score at least 10 holes of the measured course must have been played.
That statement is not qualified in any way and does not say what you are saying it says.

 

[D-S]

I think the OP said they were unable to do so, as the County Union had to be used first. And, the County Union appear to disagree what most of the informed think in here, but they agree with the Club. So, the Club have no incentive to go beyond the Union, if they are getting the "incorrect" response they were expecting?

I think they should appeal the decision and take it to the Regional Advisor or direct to EG. Not too difficult and would save a lot of grief.
The County is not the overall authority, EG is.

 

[Backsticks]

Actually, basic mathematics does say 1000 holes is better than 18.

It doesnt, and is the point I am making.
If the added precision is 0.0001shots, then that is immaterial to the accuracy of a playing handicap. The contention that 13 is better than 9 holes for hc accuracy, would be made by comparing the handicap differency between 13 and 9 hole bases.
The assumption that 13 is more than 9 so must be better, is too simplistic. Essentially the maths is too basic.

 

[wjemather]

This whole saga could be cleared up by a simple, definitive ruling from EG. Has this been sought?

EG are very clear about the flow of questions and answers.

Q: Player → Club → County Union → National Union → CONGU → R&A/USGA (WHS)
A: R&A/USGA (WHS) → CONGU → National Unions → County Unions → Clubs → Players

When someone in the middle refuses to go up the chain for confirmation when something is disputed, the OP ends up where they are now.

 

[wjemather]

It doesnt, and is the point I am making.
If the added precision is 0.0001shots, then that is immaterial to the accuracy of a playing handicap. The contention that 13 is better than 9 holes for hc accuracy, would be made by comparing the handicap differency between 13 and 9 hole bases.
The assumption that 13 is more than 9 so must be better, is too simplistic. Essentially the maths is too basic.

Utter nonsense. More data is always better than less data.
A complete 18 holes is ideal, but CONGU has decided that 9 holes is sufficient for scaling up. It's entirely obvious and logical that 10 holes is better, 11 holes is better still, etc.

 

[YandaB]

Could you reference the bit in red for me, please? It's not what is said in 2.1 of the WHS Rules and 2.2 directs that national associations may determine the minimum. That determination is in 2.2 of the CONGU Guidance document already quoted from:
For a score to be acceptable as an 18-hole score at least 10 holes of the measured course must have been played.
That statement is not qualified in any way and does not say what you are saying it says.

I get that from Rule 3.2 When a hole is Not Played.

...

Where the minumum number of holes has been completed and the reason for a player not playing a hole is valid, the player must use the following table to produce an 18 hole score.

...

If the reason for a player not playing a hole, or holes is considered invalid, the Handicap Committee may consider applying a penalty score.

 

[AlanD]

Would it not be possible to open 2 qualifier comps labelled, say, Seniors Stableford 13 and Seniors Stableford 18 with those playing in the former instructed to enter Not Started for the missing 5 holes? No need then to involve County Union or EG.

Too late for that, our club has already consulted the Count Golf Union. They have come out agaoinst us, telling us that we cannot play 13 holes under any circumstances. but through the power of the internet, I have the opposite view from a higher power.

 

[D-S]

EG are very clear about the flow of questions and answers.

Q: Player → Club → County Union → National Union → CONGU → R&A/USGA (WHS)
A: R&A/USGA (WHS) → CONGU → National Unions → County Unions → Clubs → Players

When someone in the middle refuses to go up the chain for confirmation when something is disputed, the OP ends up where they are now.

You're right about the basic chain but there is always the opportunity for someone within the chain to appeal (in the case of handicaps at an optional cost to them) to a higher level.

 

[AlanD]

This whole saga could be cleared up by a simple, definitive ruling from EG. Has this been sought?

We are stuck at County level at the moment, we are searching for evidence to lodge an appeal and take the dispute to the next level. But thanks to the power of social media I now have definitive proof that we can do 13 holes and count it towards our WHI, from a higher power then the NUGC. So we should now be able to take this forward to a successful conclusion.

 

[AlanD]

Utter nonsense. More data is always better than less data.
A complete 18 holes is ideal, but CONGU has decided that 9 holes is sufficient for scaling up. It's entirely obvious and logical that 10 holes is better, 11 holes is better still, etc.

I agree that the more data provided, the more accurate will be the outcome, submitting 13 scores will always be better than submitting only 9. That is why submitting 18 holes is the best of all.

 

[AlanD]

Too late for that, our club has already consulted the Count Golf Union. They have come out agaoinst us, telling us that we cannot play 13 holes under any circumstances. but through the power of the internet, I have the opposite view from

I think the OP said they were unable to do so, as the County Union had to be used first. And, the County Union appear to disagree what most of the informed think in here, but they agree with the Club. So, the Club have no incentive to go beyond the Union, if they are getting the "incorrect" response they were expecting?

Hi Swango1980, that just about sums up our current position, but thanks to the power of social networking, we now have a positive answer from the top of the chain. We now need to present back to our club and hopefully we will get the favourable conclusion that we are after.

 

[2blue]

Really looking forward to hearing how you get on with this as I am keen for my Club to offer a similar option in the winter when playing conditions allow Q Comps.

 

[AlanD]

Really looking forward to hearing how you get on with this as I am keen for my Club to offer a similar option in the winter when playing conditions allow Q Comps.

I think we will get our wish, I now have confirmation letter from England Golf stating that holding our 13 hole competitions and submitting the scores top England golf is perfectly acceptable.

 

[rulefan]

Would it not be possible to open 2 qualifier comps labelled, say, Seniors Stableford 13 and Seniors Stableford 18 with those playing in the former instructed to enter Not Started for the missing 5 holes? No need then to involve County Union or EG.

Would that not cause rule 3.3 Note 1 to kick in?

 

[rosecott]

Would that not cause rule 3.3 Note 1 to kick in?

Does 3.3 not refer to starting a hole. I was suggesting "Not Started".