Minimum Holes

AlanD

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Hi, we play some 13 hole competitions in our seniors section, my query is as follows :

Can we play these as qualifying competitions and submit them to the WHS platform for handicap assessment ? We play more than the minimum holes required, and the scores are scaled up to 18 holes by adding net par +1 for the unplayed 5 holes.
If not is it acceptable, can we still play these competitions as non qualifiers ?

We are currently having a dispute with our golf club and County Union, we believe that the rules regarding minimum holes to play and acceptability of scores are at best, ambiguous, so we are looking for some clarification.
 

AlanD

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Hi, we do play a mixture of 13 and 18 hole competitions. we are a group of seniors with our oldest member being 93 years of age. 13 holes suits quite a number of our members where 18 holes is too much for them physically. The 13th green is adjacent to the par 3 18th so just a short walk back in.
Thanks for the welcome, just trying to build up some evidence to support our case.
 

AlanD

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We have looked at that, but we feel that 13 real scores and 5 scaled up scores is more representative of a players form than 9 real scores and 9 scaled up scores.
 

Budds

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We have looked at that, but we feel that 13 real scores and 5 scaled up scores is more representative of a players form than 9 real scores and 9 scaled up scores.
13 holes is scaled up to a full round in US's version of WHS. 12 holes only qualifies as a 9 hole round.
 

wjemather

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Hi, we play some 13 hole competitions in our seniors section, my query is as follows :

Can we play these as qualifying competitions and submit them to the WHS platform for handicap assessment ? We play more than the minimum holes required, and the scores are scaled up to 18 holes by adding net par +1 for the unplayed 5 holes.
If not is it acceptable, can we still play these competitions as non qualifiers ?

We are currently having a dispute with our golf club and County Union, we believe that the rules regarding minimum holes to play and acceptability of scores are at best, ambiguous, so we are looking for some clarification.
I believe this was answered for you by a Regional Handicap Advisor on fb, and I agree with what he said.

So yes, 13-hole comps are acceptable for handicapping (with scores scaled up to 18 with nett par+1 for the first hole not played and nett pars for the rest).
 

wjemather

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13 holes is scaled up to a full round in US's version of WHS. 12 holes only qualifies as a 9 hole round.
The minimum number of holes for an 18-hole score in the US is 14.
If 10-13 holes are played, the surplus hole scores are discarded and the 9-hole score must be submitted.
 

AlanD

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but we don't play in the US, England Golf state that if 10 holes are played, they can be scaled up to count as an 18 hole score, provided that there is an acceptable reason for not playing the remaining holes. However we are being told that stopping after 13 holes because the competition has been created over 13 holes is not an acceptable reason.
 

AlanD

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I believe this was answered for you by a Regional Handicap Advisor on fb, and I agree with what he said.

So yes, 13-hole comps are acceptable for handicapping (with scores scaled up to 18 with nett par+1 for the first hole not played and nett pars for the rest).
We believe so too, but our golf club committee and County Union are digging in and are telling us that we must either play 9 holes or 18 - we do not know where to go next, can we appeal to the Regional Golf Union maybe ?
 

Budds

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The minimum number of holes for an 18-hole score in the US is 14.
If 10-13 holes are played, the surplus hole scores are discarded and the 9-hole score must be submitted.
Indeed - just checked on the USGA site. Thanks for the correction. The 2 (2017, so pre WHS) sites I checked previously specified 13, so presumably the min has been updated as part of WHS. And to the OP, it is, supposedly a World handicap system and I was just trying to help your case; I won't bother in future.
 
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AlanD

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Indeed - just checked on the USGA site. Thanks for the correction. The 2 (2017, so pre WHS) sites I checked previously specified 13, so presumably the min has been updated as part of WHS. And to the OP, it is, supposedly a World handicap system and I was just trying to help your case; I won't bother in future.
I appreciate your help on this matter, I did not mean to offend you with any of my replies, sorry if i did though.
 

2blue

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We have a similar position with 13 holes being easier to play during the demanding winter period & have suggested that a few 13 hole Comps would be well received by many Members. I would have thought that it should be acceptable. I would think that EG would go with that.
 

Imurg

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My view is that if you sign up to do 9 holes then you play 9 holes..if you sign up for more there is an assumption that you have the intention to play 18 and can only play fewer than 18 if certain circumstances dictate that you can't....
Having a 13 hole comp shows no intention to play 18 and, to my mind, shouldn't be classified as a qualifying round..
Whether that's actually right or not I've no idea but that how it fits in my perspective...but I can see where EG are coming from...
 

AlanD

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We have a similar position with 13 holes being easier to play during the demanding winter period & have suggested that a few 13 hole Comps would be well received by many Members. I would have thought that it should be acceptable. I would think that EG would go with that.
Thanks, we too think the same thing but we cannot get to England Golf, they told us to contact the NUGC in the first instance, which we have done. They have come down against us, and we do not know how to get our issue raised up to England Golf - ant tips out there?
 

Colin L

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We believe so too, but our golf club committee and County Union are digging in and are telling us that we must either play 9 holes or 18 - we do not know where to go next, can we appeal to the Regional Golf Union maybe ?
When the player holds a WHS Handicap Index
For a score to be acceptable as a 9-hole score, all holes of the measured 9-hole course must have been played. 9-hole scores are scaled up to an 18-hole equivalent gross differential as set out in Rule 5.1b.
For a score to be acceptable as an 18-hole score at least 10 holes of the measured course must have been played. Scores of between 10 and 17 holes are scaled up to an 18-hole equivalent gross differential in accordance with Rule 3.2.

[Rule 2.2, Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as applied in GB&I, CONGU]
 

AlanD

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When the player holds a WHS Handicap Index
For a score to be acceptable as a 9-hole score, all holes of the measured 9-hole course must have been played. 9-hole scores are scaled up to an 18-hole equivalent gross differential as set out in Rule 5.1b.
For a score to be acceptable as an 18-hole score at least 10 holes of the measured course must have been played. Scores of between 10 and 17 holes are scaled up to an 18-hole equivalent gross differential in accordance with Rule 3.2.

[Rule 2.2, Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as applied in GB&I, CONGU]
Thanks for that, we presented this as evidence to the NUGC rep, but he dismissed it out of hand saying that you had to start out with the intent of playing 18 holes, and then you had to have an acceptable reason for not playing all 18, such as Illness, a hole being closed by the green staff, course being closed due to bad weather etc. if you start a round with the intention of only playing 13 holes, that is not an acceptable reason for walking off after playing the 13th green.
 

YandaB

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2.1a shows a table of authorised formats of play, this only mentions 9 and 18 holes. Whilst 10 holes played for an 18 hole course is acceptable, that depends on the reason for the other holes not being played. There is no mention of a 13 hole (or any other number) competition being an acceptable reason for not starting/playing the other 5 holes. I see nothing in the lists of examples for acceptable and non-acceptable reasons that covers this situation. The nearest possible one is that the competition committee can declare holes out of play for maintenance or reconstruction purposes but this still quite some way away in my opinion.

I have no idea how to appeal above the county organsiation to the national organisation.
 

AlanD

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2.1a shows a table of authorised formats of play, this only mentions 9 and 18 holes. Whilst 10 holes played for an 18 hole course is acceptable, that depends on the reason for the other holes not being played. There is no mention of a 13 hole (or any other number) competition being an acceptable reason for not starting/playing the other 5 holes. I see nothing in the lists of examples for acceptable and non-acceptable reasons that covers this situation. The nearest possible one is that the competition committee can declare holes out of play for maintenance or reconstruction purposes but this still quite some way away in my opinion.

I have no idea how to appeal above the county organsiation to the national organisation.
 

AlanD

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This is an extract from England Golfs Guidance Document on Setting out the Terms of Competitions. This is page 7, referring to a round as 18 or fewer holes played in the order set by committee. why would it say that if you could only play rounds of 9 or 18 holes ??
 
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