Madeleine McCann

[Ethan]

Yes they would have been as strong - most defiantly. Leaving kids that young alone in a holiday apt isn't just a simple mistake ( one they seemed to do every single night ) - it's beyond poor lack of judgement. No one leaves kids that young alone for more than a minute unsupervised , I will never comprehend why they did it

Sure they do. At 2 or 3, the kids are usually in different rooms from their parents, often on different floors and occasionally a single parent will put the bins out while the kids are in bed.

Is it OK to walk to the garden gate?

5 feet outside?

Where is the acceptable limit, exactly?

 

[Khamelion]

Nobody disagrees that if they had still been in the apartment, this tragedy would almost certainly not have happened. The debate is about whether leaving them in the apartment to go to the tapas bar was willfully negligent or something a bit stupid that has a massively disproportionate outcome. I think it is hard to comment on that without the benefit of hindsight. The Maddy McCann case is now a teaching case on not doing this, but can we honestly say that the vociferousness of the condemnations would have been just as strong before the case?

The one thing above all others that this case has highlighted is that the McCanns thought it okay to leave their very young children unattended while they ate out with friends ( who had done the same in leaving their children alone) some distance away and without a direct line of sight to them.

This is not a teaching case, don't know how you can say that, I do not need to be taught not to leave my children alone, I didn't when my daughter was a baby and toddler and would certainly not need to be taught that now.

It is just plain good common sense that you do not leave your children or children in your care alone at any point, I just cannot comprehend why any parent would do that.

 

[Robobum]

I think you misunderstand. Before the Maddy case had happened, would the terms of this debate be so strongly expressed. Nowt to do whether they were going for Bollinger or Buckfast.

Still 100%.

Now Bolli & Buckie would be an interesting cocktail!!!

 

[Ethan]

The one thing above all others that this case has highlighted is that the McCanns thought it okay to leave their very young children unattended while they ate out with friends ( who had done the same in leaving their children alone) some distance away and without a direct line of sight to them.

This is not a teaching case, don't know how you can say that, I do not need to be taught not to leave my children alone, I didn't when my daughter was a baby and toddler and would certainly not need to be taught that now.

It is just plain good common sense that you do not leave your children or children in your care alone at any point, I just cannot comprehend why any parent would do that.

I can say that because it is perfectly obvious that people have pause now when in any situation where their kids are not in their eyeline, especially on holiday. Whilst you may well, or may think that, you would never have let them out of your sight for a second, the fact is that prior to Maddy, many people might not have been as sensitized to this risk as they are now. Therefore this case has had a teaching effect. It is also rather difficult to keep 3 or 4 year olds in your sight all the time even when out. I take my boys to Legoland pretty often and if I wanted to be able to see them both 100% of the time, I would have to put them on leads.

But don't misunderstand. I think it was a very bad idea to leave Maddy and the other kids, would not have done so myself, and I am certain the McCanns have torn themselves up about it, but I think the power of hindsight has coloured the certitude of those who swear they would never ever have let their kids out of their sight for a second.

 

[guest100718]

I can say that because it is perfectly obvious that people have pause now when in any situation where their kids are not in their eyeline, especially on holiday. Whilst you may well, or may think that, you would never have let them out of your sight for a second, the fact is that prior to Maddy, many people might not have been as sensitized to this risk as they are now. Therefore this case has had a teaching effect. It is also rather difficult to keep 3 or 4 year olds in your sight all the time even when out. I take my boys to Legoland pretty often and if I wanted to be able to see them both 100% of the time, I would have to put them on leads.

But don't misunderstand. I think it was a very bad idea to leave Maddy and the other kids, would not have done so myself, and I am certain the McCanns have torn themselves up about it, but I think the power of hindsight has coloured the certitude of those who swear they would never ever have let their kids out of their sight for a second.

Sorry, its not about letting kids out of your site for a second. Kids move fast and are often out of site, that doesn't mean I am not doing everything I can to keep my eyes on them. What the Mcanns did was knowingly leave THREE children ages 3 and below on their own while they went out for a meal and a drink with friends, not just once but several times.
That is wrong, so very very wrong.

 

[Fish]

As the DCI on Crimewatch said, they now think this was an organised event in which several days reconnaissance took place.

Which is what I said in my first post on here, due to their repetition of going to the Tapas over several nights at the same time they allowed an opportunity to exist, not a single opportune moment and a misguided wrong singular judgement on their (McCanns) part, they put their children at risk for their own repetitive enjoyment.

Every interview I have seen and I hear of questions being refused to be answered, to what gain god only knows when your daughter is missing, I believe in my personal opinion that they (McCanns) feel they have done nothing wrong and were unlucky! I'm sorry but I disagree with that strongly, it wasn't unlucky, they assisted and helped those guilty of this by their own irresponsible actions, no different to leaving your keys in your car or your window of the house open but on a totally different and catastrophic scale.

I also find it hard to believe that they checked as regular as they claim, yes on the first night, and then possibly on the 2nd night, but, as the nights rolled on (6 I believe but happy to be corrected) I would think its human nature for those gaps to get longer and it has always been my opinion that their is still something that the McCanns are not telling us, and if that is so, then they are not helping the hunt and enquiry as time frames will be completely irrelevant!

It is not uncommon for people (parents) to get caught up in the public outrage and sympathy when something like this happens when children go missing or are murdered, something suddenly transpires from it all and instead of correcting it or admitting to something to dismiss it, they roll with it and start to believe it themselves and become embroiled within it all, I hope for Maddies sake this is not the case with the McCanns or we are looking up blind alleys.

I have served many years in reconnaissance, looking into environments along with people that just don't seem right and are out of place, I have done this in civilian environments for HMF as well as full-on under extreme active service situations and their is something I believe we are still not being told by the McCanns, their body language and demeanour just doesn't sit right to me and never has. I hope and would actually like to be wrong because any information being withheld or not rectified only harms the fight to find Maddie.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Sorry, its not about letting kids out of your site for a second. Kids move fast and are often out of site, that doesn't mean I am not doing everything I can to keep my eyes on them. What the Mcanns did was knowingly leave THREE children ages 3 and below on their own while they went out for a meal and a drink with friends, not just once but several times.
That is wrong, so very very wrong.

Paddy, I totally agree with you, Watching the program last night it was said that Maddy was feeling unwell during the day. So my questions is why would you leave you kids unattended for 30 mins at a time knowing that she wasn't well. What happened if she had been sick during the night? I know when my lad was younger my ex wife would sleep in the same room as him all night to make sure he is OK. I know it might sound over the top but it prevents hindsight if something had gone wrong. To know your child isn't well and to still go out for a meal 100 yards away over a swimming pool etc is just unbelievable.

 

[Khamelion]

I take my boys to Legoland pretty often and if I wanted to be able to see them both 100% of the time, I would have to put them on leads.

Many parents do, I see it all the time in the Metrocenter.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sure they do. At 2 or 3, the kids are usually in different rooms from their parents, often on different floors and occasionally a single parent will put the bins out while the kids are in bed.

Is it OK to walk to the garden gate?

5 feet outside?

Where is the acceptable limit, exactly?

Are you really being that literal ?!

Ok let me rephrase it for you then - no parent leaves their kids alone for hours unsupervised and leaves the grounds of their home ie floors and garden and whilst on holiday no parent leaves them alone in the apt whilst the parents leave the apt and go out and have a meal

A parent should always been IMO in ear shot of the child so they can hear the child if they get upset or something happens.

 

[GreiginFife]

Been reading this with interest, lots of know-it-all finger prodding (metaphorically of course) going on.
The people being accused of being harsh and heartless are in the exact same boat as the people being accused of misplaced compassion... Not one of you know what really happened. So no-one can claim that anyone else is right or wrong until the TRUTH of the matter comes out - eventually it will, it's the when that's the question.

FWIW, I would never leave my son alone in an appartment whilst abroad in order to do ANYTHING without first ensuring that someone was there to look after him, that's nothing to do with the McCann incident, it's just common sense to me. In the same way that whilst at home I am happy for him to be in another room as I can hear him and observe the surroundings (familiar surroundings at that) continually because I will notice anything out of place/out of the ordinary - I couldn't say the same in a foreign locale.
As I live rurally, should I NEED to leave the house to do something whilst he is in bed and no-one else is around then I will lock the door whilst I do whatever it is. Overkill? Maybe but seems like common sense to me (which is subjective).
If you were in the pub, wouold you leave your phone or keys on the table while you went to speak to someone at the other side of the pub? If you did and they went missing, would you feel/claim that you had done nothing wrong? Yes, I realise the scale is different, but the principle is the same.
The line of sight claimed to be in existance was obviously not that clear or good otherwise what happened would have been witnessed.
The above, like everyone's posts (regardless of being defensive or accusatory) is conjecture based on the little that I know.

Not one person on this forum can say that another person's opinion is right or wrong unless they know significantly more in the way of fact, in which case they should be speaking with the police and not a bunch of weekend warriors and chompers....

#justsaying

 

[chrisd]

Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?

 

[Khamelion]

I believe in my personal opinion that they (McCanns) feel they have done nothing wrong and were unlucky! I'm sorry but I disagree with that strongly, it wasn't unlucky, they assisted and helped those guilty of this by their own irresponsible actions.....

100%

While being interviewed, Kate McCann said, she felt she had done nothing wrong and that 100% of the blame is on those who took Madelaine. Just how Kate MacCann could sit there in seflrighteous indignation and spout such tripe is mind boggling. She cannot accept that she made a repeated monumental error in judgement and she is trying to spin it assuage the guilt.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?

An investigation by child services and the police and prosecution if they was no mitigation circumstances for them leaving their kids alone whilst they went out

It's happened here when a young mother went out shopping and left her two kids at home alone and the neighbours heard them crying and called the police - the kids were initially taken into care whilst she was investigated and prosecuted for neglect

 

[Deleted member 15344]

100%

While being interviewed, Kate McCann said, she felt she had done nothing wrong and that 100% of the blame is on those who took Madelaine. Just how Kate MacCann could sit there in seflrighteous indignation and spout such tripe is mind boggling. She cannot accept that she made a repeated monumental error in judgement and she is trying to spin it assuage the guilt.

Questions that Kate McCann refused to answer


The questions listed below form a record of the interrogation of Kate McCann conducted by Portuguese detectives investigating the disappearance of her three-year-old daughter Madeleine during a family holiday.
The questioning came after Mrs McCann was declared an arguido, or suspect, in September 2007.
Mrs McCann used her right to remain silent and only answered one question.
Her arguido status was lifted on 21 July this year. She and her husband have always denied any involvement in their daughter's disappearance.
The police inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance was wound up last month due to a lack of evidence.
7 SEPTEMBER QUESTIONS TO KATE McCANN
1 On 3 May 2007 at around 2200, when you entered the apartment what did you see and do, where did you look, and what did you touch?
2 Did you look inside the wardrobe in the bedroom? She said she wouldn't answer.
3 (Shown two photographs of the wardrobe) Can you describe its contents?
4 Why had the curtain behind the sofa in front of the side window (a photograph of which was shown to her), been disturbed? Had someone passed behind this sofa?
5 How much time did you spend searching in the apartment after realising that your daughter Madeleine had disappeared?
6 Why did you say from the start that Madeleine had been abducted?
7 Assuming that Madeleine had been abducted, why did you leave the twins alone at home to go to the Tapas to raise the alarm, not least because the supposed abductor could still be in the apartment?
8 Why did you not ask the twins at that moment what had happened to their sister, or why did you not ask them later?
9 When you raised the alarm in the Tapas what specific words were used?
10 What happened after raising the alarm at the Tapas?
11 Did you have a mobile phone with you at that moment?
12 Why did you go to warn your friends instead of shouting from the balcony?
13 Who contacted the authorities?
14 Who took part in the searches?
15 Did someone outside the group learn, in the moments that followed, of Madeleine's disappearance?
16 Did any neighbour offer you help after the alarm was raised about the disappearance?
17 What did the expression "we let her down" mean?
18 Did Jane tell you that she had seen a man carrying a child that night?
19 How were the authorities contacted and which police force was alerted?
20 During the searches after police arrived, in which places were Madeleine searched for, and in what way?
21 Why did the twins not wake up during the search or when they went upstairs?
22 Whom did you telephone after the discovery?
23 Did you call Sky News?
24 Did you know of any danger of calling the media alerting them of the abduction, since this could influence the abductor?
25 Did you request the presence of a priest?
26 In what way was the face of Madeleine, in photographs or by other means, released?
27 Is it true that during the search you remained seated on Madeleine's bed in your room without moving?
28 What was your behaviour like during that night?
29 Did you manage to sleep?
30 Before the trip to Portugal did you make a comment about a bad feeling or premonition about it?
31 What was Madeleine's behaviour like?
32 Did Madeleine suffer from any infirmity or take medication?
33 What was Madeleine's relationship like with her brother and sister, friends and fellow pupils?
34 Regarding your professional life, in how many hospitals and in which ones did you work?
35 What was your speciality as a doctor?
36 Do you work shifts in emergency wards or other departments?
37 Do you work in the daytime?
38 Why did you stop working at a certain point?
39 Is it true or not that the twins have difficulty falling asleep, that they are restless and that this upsets you?
40 Is it true or not that at certain times you felt desperate at your children's attitude and that this upsets you a lot?
41 Is it true or not that in England you went so far as thinking about handing over Madeleine to a relative to look after?
42 At home (in England) did you give medication to your children and what kind of medication?
43 (Various films had been shown to her of the inspection by forensic dogs, where one can see their signalling indications of the scent of a human corpse and traces of human blood as well as the comments by the expert overseeing the exercise.) Having seen the film and after the scent of a corpse was signalled in her bedroom near the wardrobe, and behind the sofa by the window in the sitting room, Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
44 She was asked about the sniffer dog that signalled human blood behind the above-mentioned sofa. She said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
45 She was asked about the scent of corpse which was signalled in the vehicle she hired about a month after the disappearance, with number plate 59-DA-27. She said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
46 When the presence of human blood was signalled in the boot of the same vehicle Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
47 Confronted with the result of the sample of Madeleine's DNA, whose analysis was carried out by a British laboratory, found behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle, as previously described, Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
48 Did you have any responsibility or involvement in the disappearance of your daughter Madeleine?
49 Are you aware that the fact of your not answering the questions put to you jeopardise the investigation that was aimed at finding out what happened to your daughter, she answered: "Yes, if the investigation thinks that."
50 Do you have anything to add? She said: "No."
51 Her lawyer was asked to comment. He said he had nothing to state or request.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am afraid you do not understand the charge of slander. You do not have to allege a criminal offence, nor is slander a criminal offence - it is a civil one in which you simply have to say something which could cause reputational damage. Internet debate has been determined to be slander rather than libel. Hinting at something more than meets the eye (or whatever it was you said) could suggest you think the McCanns had a direct hand in the disappearance, for example, and you could be asked to explain exactly what you suspected and what evidence you had for that opinion. Good luck with the defence of gut instinct. You might be better saying a leprechaun appeared to you in a dream. At least a defence of insanity might play.

Complaining about a court verdict is entirely different because the fact there was a cause brought in the first place is evidence that there were adequate grounds to believe the accused was guilty and a conviction might occur. Losing the case does not negate those grounds. And people are not found innocent, they are found not guilty which is not the same thing at all.

Also, saying the McCanns are now unfit to look after their two other kids is not a huge stretch at reputational damage either.

I am not trying to paint you as the bad guy. You are doing it all by yourself. You really should stop.

On this please see for recent social media precedent the case of Lord McAlpine vs Sally Bercow and her little twitter

 

[FairwayDodger]

100%

While being interviewed, Kate McCann said, she felt she had done nothing wrong and that 100% of the blame is on those who took Madelaine. Just how Kate MacCann could sit there in seflrighteous indignation and spout such tripe is mind boggling. She cannot accept that she made a repeated monumental error in judgement and she is trying to spin it assuage the guilt.

You keep coming back to this point and it baffles me. I didn't see the programme last night but did hear an interview with Kate McCann on the radio this morning, which I assumed was an excerpt from the programme. In it she absolutely admitted that they'd been wrong to leave her and that she had spent years "persecuting" (her exact word, I remember it as it seemed a strange choice) herself for it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It is just plain good common sense that you do not leave your children or children in your care alone at any point, I just cannot comprehend why any parent would do that.

Whilst I understand the emotion behind this statement it rather ignores the fact that kids can go missing at any point no matter how attentive you think you are being. So you turn your back in the supermarket - your 3 yr old vanishes etc. On holiday a few years ago in France we lost our 10yr old son for 5 hrs (from 1am - 6am). We had a duplex apartment in a hotel. Children downstairs - us upstairs. In middle of night my son - who had sleep-walked in the past - got out of bed - walked out of our hotel room and vanished. Yes - we found him - but not after the local police and sniffer dog teams had been called out. Were we reckless having him sleep downstairs as we knew he had in the past done a bit of sleepwalking - were we negligent. Nothing happened but 'what-if'?

This whole responsibility/negligence thing in respect of the McCanns is to me a very nasty side-issue to the real one of their daughter's disappearance. Why so many folk seem to want to get at the McCanns and even see them jailed I really don't get, and for me is frankly beyond the pale.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Paddy, I totally agree with you, Watching the program last night it was said that Maddy was feeling unwell during the day. So my questions is why would you leave you kids unattended for 30 mins at a time knowing that she wasn't well. What happened if she had been sick during the night? I know when my lad was younger my ex wife would sleep in the same room as him all night to make sure he is OK. I know it might sound over the top but it prevents hindsight if something had gone wrong. To know your child isn't well and to still go out for a meal 100 yards away over a swimming pool etc is just unbelievable.

Conjectural whatiffery - and completely besides the actual point of the disappearance of a little girl.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Questions that Kate McCann refused to answer


The questions listed below form a record of the interrogation of Kate McCann conducted by Portuguese detectives investigating the disappearance of her three-year-old daughter Madeleine during a family holiday.

7 SEPTEMBER QUESTIONS TO KATE McCANN
1 On 3 May 2007 at around 2200, when you entered the apartment what did you see and do, where did you look, and what did you touch?
2...

And your point is? Or what are you suggesting? I'm assuming that this is not your own list so I'm wondering where you sourced it from - reference please?

 

[Fish]

Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?

Minimum 3yr probation with social services in constant contact with unannounced visits to ensure the protection and well being of the 2 other children. Reporting their movements to social services weekly and declare what they have in place in association with their movements due to work and other commitments. I believe this has to be a minimum requirement because of the denial that Kate McCann constantly displays in doing nothing wrong!

However, that is based only if all the current information is true but if irregularities are found further down the line, then the full weight of the law should be exercised and charges followed through with prison being a real possibility if they have been found to Pervert the Course of Justice.