LIV Golf

[Slab]

Just letting my mind wander a bit but with the limited knowledge we have of the deal conditions, what is the worst they could do to him if they had reason to? (I guess any sane employee would have to consider worst case scenario when accepting any contract/deal/offer)
Well he lives in Arizona, they could make one of his two mandatory dpwt tournaments the Mauritius Open usually finishing just 4 days before xmas, and much as a like living here, in his shoes I’d be saying that’s just not happening… so now what happens, he’s in breach if he doesn’t show

Folk can throw their arms up in mock surprise saying that’ll never happen and it prob wouldn’t... but probably isn’t definitely (that's why there's contracts)

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Just letting my mind wander a bit but with the limited knowledge we have of the deal conditions, what is the worst they could do to him if they had reason to? (I guess any sane employee would have to consider worst case scenario when accepting any contract/deal/offer)
Well he lives in Arizona, they could make one of his two mandatory dpwt tournaments the Mauritius Open usually finishing just 4 days before xmas, and much as a like living here, in his shoes I’d be saying that’s just not happening… so now what happens, he’s in breach if he doesn’t show

Folk can throw their arms up in mock surprise saying that’ll never happen and it prob wouldn’t... but probably isn’t definitely (that's why there's contracts)

I suspect there will be a number of events like

Irish Open
Scottish Open
PGA
Dunhill Links
Spanish Open
Italian Open


Some historic Opens which don’t clash with any LIV or majors etc


But he has a choice - he just quits his European Tour membership like others and his is then just dictated too by one tour


It will never help his cause when he talks about being told what events he must play in to be a member when that already happens on LIV - the difference is the ET aren’t going to give him vast sums of money for the pleasure

 

[Slab]

I suspect there will be a number of events like

Irish Open
Scottish Open
PGA
Dunhill Links
Spanish Open
Italian Open


Some historic Opens which don’t clash with any LIV or majors etc


But he has a choice - he just quits his European Tour membership like others and his is then just dictated too by one tour


It will never help his cause when he talks about being told what events he must play in to be a member when that already happens on LIV - the difference is the ET aren’t going to give him vast sums of money for the pleasure

You're right those are the most likely venues but not definitive
His choice is not just to quit as you suggest... he could appeal/negotiate etc. If your employer does something you're not happy with, simply quitting isn't the only (or best) option
LIV gave him a contract for x events and he found that acceptable, (I'm sure the money helped) there's no fundamental legal diff between a liv contract and a dpwt contract.
He obviously found the conditions in one he could work to and one he can't (yet)

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

I get the arguments against Rahm, but for me the main issue I see in his statement and I agree with is the number of compulsory number of events. The deal they're saying he has to sign is 6 events yet everyone else that is dual tour is 4 events and that seems his main gripe. If thats the case then he absolutely has a point and a right to state its unfair that they're asking LIV players to commit to more events than those that are PGAT dual tour playing.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You're right those are the most likely venues but not definitive
His choice is not just to quit as you suggest... he could appeal/negotiate etc. If your employer does something you're not happy with, simply quitting isn't the only (or best) option
LIV gave him a contract for x events and he found that acceptable, (I'm sure the money helped) there's no fundamental legal diff between a liv contract and a dpwt contract.
He obviously found the conditions in one he could work to and one he can't (yet)

He isnt an employer of the European Tour , he is a member , that membership comes with stipulations to play a certain amount of events each year

If he doesn’t want to play those events then he removes his membership just like all the others did - he isn’t under contract,

He either takes membership or he doesn’t

He has no choice when it comes to LIV , he signed a contract that dictates every single event he must play - when and where is dictated by someone else not him

He “has” to play every single event as per his contract

He is employed by LIV

There are fundamental key differences between LIV and all the other tours

Sympathy will be non existent for many golfers when they start to moan about being told they have to play certain events

They don’t seem to mind being told what to do when they are given vast sums of money

 

[Slab]

He isnt an employer of the European Tour , he is a member , that membership comes with stipulations to play a certain amount of events each year

If he doesn’t want to play those events then he removes his membership just like all the others did - he isn’t under contract,

He either takes membership or he doesn’t

He has no choice when it comes to LIV , he signed a contract that dictates every single event he must play - when and where is dictated by someone else not him

He “has” to play every single event as per his contract

He is employed by LIV

There are fundamental key differences between LIV and all the other tours

Sympathy will be non existent for many golfers when they start to moan about being told they have to play certain events

They don’t seem to mind being told what to do when they are given vast sums of money

Way off on your tangents here "he has no choice when it comes to liv..." of course he did! He could sign the contract to play on that tour with its conditions & schedule or he could decline their offer & the cash. This = choice, he made a choice
No amount of spin can change the choice he had and will have again when renewal comes round. Once a player chooses to take up an dpwt/liv playing offer they are bound by its conditions which will vary from tour to tour

what he faces now is that if he takes/retains/wants ET membership is it reasonable for him to expect that it'd be on equal terms to all other ET memberships, he thinks it should be & from what little we know it appears his offer of membership would have added conditions that other players don't have, that it seems is his sticking point he wants cleared up

 

[Mel Smooth]

I get the arguments against Rahm, but for me the main issue I see in his statement and I agree with is the number of compulsory number of events. The deal they're saying he has to sign is 6 events yet everyone else that is dual tour is 4 events and that seems his main gripe. If thats the case then he absolutely has a point and a right to state its unfair that they're asking LIV players to commit to more events than those that are PGAT dual tour playing.

As he says, make it 4 events like everyone else and he sign immediately.

He is being discriminated against because he plays on LIV.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Way off on your tangents here "he has no choice when it comes to liv..." of course he did! He could sign the contract to play on that tour with its conditions & schedule or he could decline their offer & the cash. This = choice, he made a choice
No amount of spin can change the choice he had and will have again when renewal comes round. Once a player chooses to take up an dpwt/liv playing offer they are bound by its conditions which will vary from tour to tour

He did make the choice to sign with LIV and is now dictated to by them - he must play where and when they say

We aren’t talking about 2/3 years ago - it’s the situation he is in now

He doesn’t have a choice when it comes to one tour

He has a choice with the other

what he faces now is that if he takes/retains/wants ET membership is it reasonable for him to expect that it'd be on equal terms to all other ET memberships, he thinks it should be & from what little we know it appears his offer of membership would have added conditions that other players don't have, that it seems is his sticking point he wants cleared up

If he isn’t happy with the conditions that the ET are setting in place for members of LIV tour then he doesn’t take up membership of said tour and just sticks with LIV

He isn’t forced into playing on the European Tour- others have taken up the opportunity and taken membership, he doesn’t have to follow them

Won’t be getting any sympathy of any perceived treatment

At the end of the day it’s not compulsory to play on any tour , he makes choices and then with those choices is consequences

That’s always the same moaning from the players - they made their bed , they made their choices - they now need to live by them

When he says stuff like this


“I just don't like the situation. I think we should be able to freely play where we want and have the choice to play ‌where we ⁠want and not be dictated what we do. ”

He loses any respect and argument when he is a member of a tour that does tell him when and where he must play

 

[Slab]

Wasn’t it just a couple of seasons back when the pgat said it was mandatory for the top dogs to play in all but one of the seasons signature events each year? How is that concept materially any different to what liv stipulate for its players? A mandated schedule is not a new concept
Not to mention the opposing dpwt events that were on the same weekend when these mandatory pgat signature events were scheduled meaning the dpwt members had no option to play on that tour even if they wanted to

First and foremost, the ET is still my preferred tour to view & support… but my preference for that tour doesn’t mean I have to bash any/every other tour at nauseum, its actually possible to see things from both perspectives without having to take a side

 

[wjemather]

Saying Rahm is being dictated to by LIV is an extremely disingenuous way of describing a contract which he chose to enter into; thereby making the decision himself to play all events on that tour, knowing full well that the yearly schedules were not fixed (neither dates nor venues).

He has no such contract (or even informal agreement) with any other tour that mandates playing specific events, and has declined to enter into one that is obviously unreasonable and doesn't treat everyone the same.

 

[wjemather]

Wasn’t it just a couple of seasons back when the pgat said it was mandatory for the top dogs to play in all but one of the seasons signature events each year? How is that concept materially any different to what liv stipulate for its players? A mandated schedule is not a new concept
Not to mention the opposing dpwt events that were on the same weekend when these mandatory pgat signature events were scheduled meaning the dpwt members had no option to play on that tour even if they wanted to

First and foremost, the ET is still my preferred tour to view & support… but my preference for that tour doesn’t mean I have to bash any/every other tour at nauseum, its actually possible to see things from both perspectives without having to take a side

They tried but since it wasn't a contracted obligation and only affected bonus payments, several top players (including McIlroy) stuck two fingers up and skipped several, so the policy was scrapped after just one season.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Saying Rahm is being dictated to by LIV is an extremely disingenuous way of describing a contract which he chose to enter into; thereby making the decision himself to play all events on that tour, knowing full well that the yearly schedules were not fixed (neither dates nor venues).

He has no such contract (or even informal agreement) with any other tour that mandates playing specific events, and has declined to enter into one that is obviously unreasonable and doesn't treat everyone the same.

“I just don't like the situation. I think we should be able to freely play where we want and have the choice to play ‌where we ⁠want and not be dictated what we do. “

That’s his words - maybe he needs to think about his contract with LIV then because he is dictated to by them

Right now he doesn’t have the freedom to play wherever he wants - he can’t miss a LIV event to play elsewhere

He may have a point about LIV players being given different levels to meet by other tours - but he can’t talk about freedoms to play where he wants when that’s not the case for him anyway

 

[wjemather]

“I just don't like the situation. I think we should be able to freely play where we want and have the choice to play ‌where we ⁠want and not be dictated what we do. “

That’s his words - maybe he needs to think about his contract with LIV then because he is dictated to by them

Right now he doesn’t have the freedom to play wherever he wants - he can’t miss a LIV event to play elsewhere

He may have a point about LIV players being given different levels to meet by other tours - but he can’t talk about freedoms to play where he wants when that’s not the case for him anyway

Freedom to choose where to play and when includes the freedom to enter into a contract to play specific tournaments.

He has entered into such a contract with LIV. He has no such contract with any other tour and it doesn't sound like he wants one, especially one that offers no compensation for doing so.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Freedom to choose where to play and when includes the freedom to enter into a contract to play specific tournaments.

He has entered into such a contract with LIV. He has no such contract with any other tour and it doesn't sound like he wants one, especially one that offers no compensation for doing so.

So once he has entered into that contract he is then dictated to by the tour

And your last part if the crux of it

He is ok to remove his freedoms of when and where to play based on the amount of money someone will give him


Suspect if the ET were to offer him a big chunk of wedge then he would happily be told which two events he must play along with picking 4 others

 

[Slab]

So once he has entered into that contract he is then dictated to by the tour

And your last part if the crux of it

He is ok to remove his freedoms of when and where to play based on the amount of money someone will give him


Suspect if the ET were to offer him a big chunk of wedge then he would happily be told which two events he must play along with picking 4 others

I reckon you’re spot on here
With a sufficient financial package he’d agree to some/all his events to be mandated. (That’s pretty much what he did on liv after all) and assuming no conflict of dates (and enough dosh) he may well be open to that same deal from ET too (maybe even without the cash!)

What he’s not agreeing to is ‘pay fines and play events we say and we’ll give no dosh’

I can see where ET is coming from & why, and also where he’s at. Hopefully a deal can still be struck

 

[wjemather]

So once he has entered into that contract he is then dictated to by the tour

And your last part if the crux of it

He is ok to remove his freedoms of when and where to play based on the amount of money someone will give him


Suspect if the ET were to offer him a big chunk of wedge then he would happily be told which two events he must play along with picking 4 others

Anyone who enters into a contract controls that decision so is being dictated to by no-one but themselves.

Having entered into such a contract, they still have the freedom to negotiate termination of that contract and incur whatever contractual penalties there are.
The established tours have no such contract or defined penalties and are just making up rules as they go (to try and look like they are in control, when the opposite is true); worse, they are applying their new rules inconsistently.

Anyone choosing to accept compensation for playing additional events (let's call them appearance fees) would still be controlling their own schedule.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I reckon you’re spot on here
With a sufficient financial package he’d agree to some/all his events to be mandated. (That’s pretty much what he did on liv after all) and assuming no conflict of dates (and enough dosh) he may well be open to that same deal from ET too (maybe even without the cash!)

What he’s not agreeing to is ‘pay fines and play events we say and we’ll give no dosh’

I can see where ET is coming from & why, and also where he’s at. Hopefully a deal can still be struck

Don’t have any issues with him not agreeing to conditions the ET have set up - his choice

There isn’t a single golfer that can play when and where they like - they are all dictated to by a tour in some way

That’s the same with any sport tbh

Imo there is a lot of wanting it their way or no way

If they want to play LIV - this is what they must do

If they want to play ET - this is what they must do

Etc etc

There will always be conditions set up for playing on any tour

But don’t moan about being dictated to from one tour when you’re dictated to by another but it just so happens the other tour gives you a lot of money for that pleasure

The fines were there from the start , the situation was know

ET and in some ways PGAT have put pathways down for LIV players to play on either tour but it’s not compulsory to anyone

 

[Slab]

Don’t have any issues with him not agreeing to conditions the ET have set up - his choice

There isn’t a single golfer that can play when and where they like - they are all dictated to by a tour in some way

That’s the same with any sport tbh

Imo there is a lot of wanting it their way or no way

If they want to play LIV - this is what they must do

If they want to play ET - this is what they must do

Etc etc

There will always be conditions set up for playing on any tour

But don’t moan about being dictated to from one tour when you’re dictated to by another but it just so happens the other tour gives you a lot of money for that pleasure

The fines were there from the start , the situation was know

ET and in some ways PGAT have put pathways down for LIV players to play on either tour but it’s not compulsory to anyone

But what good does not moaning do (if that’s how you want to describe it) Who wins? Neither side wins

When there’s a difference of opinion/requirements etc then it has to be brought up and verbalised somehow if any agreement is to be reached
In a press conf environment it might well be seen as moaning, I suspect using proper channels it’s a little more business like (& I doubt its Rahm himself conducting that exchange anyway)

How it comes across to you/me is incidental

 

[Arthur Wedge]

But what good does not moaning do (if that’s how you want to describe it) Who wins? Neither side wins

When there’s a difference of opinion/requirements etc then it has to be brought up and verbalised somehow if any agreement is to be reached
In a press conf environment it might well be seen as moaning, I suspect using proper channels it’s a little more business like (& I doubt its Rahm himself conducting that exchange anyway)

How it comes across to you/me is incidental

It’s a mess all round , a new tour came in and since then it’s just been a mess , there is no workings between any of the tours because they are all trying to look after their own entities

ET have tried to find a way to get players from LIV to play on their tour - it seems it’s ok for most of them bar one

I don’t think there will ever be a situation where they all sit harmoniously together - it’s too volatile a situation and no one wins - well apart from some golfers getting well paid across a number of tours


It is a shame that we don’t have the same sort of pyramid system as other sports like tennis or F1 etc where there is one main global tour where all the top players play and then there are feeder tours below

 

[SteveW86]

The sun is out now guys…..