LIV Golf

[Arthur Wedge]

There's only one tournament that has really been diminished in any measurable way as far as I can tell, and that's The Players.

• all the top players were in the majors - a small number are now missing out (although more will in future as exemptions expire), but it hasn't (yet) changed the fields to the extent that they are diminished, and is unlikely to as the majors are creating exemptions and extending invitations to LIV players
• almost all the top players were in The Players - at least a couple of dozen are now missing, so this is the only tournament that has been significantly diminished by PGA Tour suspensions
• most of the top players were in the WGCs, but a few opted to skip at least one of them, and the PGA Tour was in the process of killing them off so they can be ignored
• most of the top players were in the big tour events (Bay Hill, Muirfield Village, etc.), but many opted to skip at least one of them so with almost all the tour's remaining top players now attending, missing the LIV guys doesn't diminish them at all
• a sprinkling of top players appeared in mid-tier tour events - no real change.
• almost none of the top players appeared in lesser tour events - no real change.

In addition to the majors and PGA Tour, we now have a 14 event circuit with half the events outside the US showcasing dozens of the world's best players in a condensed format with coverage that shows more golf shots than commercials, and an elevated Asian Tour series that many of the top players from LIV participate in.

The one tour that has been diminished is the European Tour, but that is the work of the PGA Tour aided by Keith Pelley and a few others on the ET board, not LIV.

When you say top players who are we talking about him - you have mentioned 24 a number of times and I’m interested to understand who the 24 top players on LIV are when that’s just under half the field

Top players on LIV imo are

Rahm
BDC
Koepka
DJ
Hatton
Niemann

Mickleson is prob just outside maybe now

 

[3 jabber]

When you say top players who are we talking about him - you have mentioned 24 a number of times and I’m interested to understand who the 24 top players on LIV are when that’s just under half the field

Top players on LIV imo are

Rahm
BDC
Koepka
DJ
Hatton
Niemann

Mickleson is prob just outside maybe now

DJ is also well past his sell by date now as well.

 

[Hobbit]

When you say top players who are we talking about him - you have mentioned 24 a number of times and I’m interested to understand who the 24 top players on LIV are when that’s just under half the field

Top players on LIV imo are

Rahm
BDC
Koepka
DJ
Hatton
Niemann

Mickleson is prob just outside maybe now

Apart from a number of very, consistent, top players I don’t think either tour has any star players. Some are perceived to be major attractions because of their personality before their playing ability. Obviously, Tiger still draws a massive amount of media attention but in reality he’s not even a good golfer now.

Equally, we all have our favourites that we’d go and watch. I can remember following Nichlaus and Watson around St Andrews 20+ years ago. They were close on retiring totally from the main tour then but still drew a massive crowd. It’s not always about the score…

 

[Arthur Wedge]

DJ is also well past his sell by date now as well.

I don’t think it would take too much for him to be amongst those

Apart from a number of very, consistent, top players I don’t think either tour has any star players. Some are perceived to be major attractions because of their personality before their playing ability. Obviously, Tiger still draws a massive amount of media attention but in reality he’s not even a good golfer now.

Equally, we all have our favourites that we’d go and watch. I can remember following Nichlaus and Watson around St Andrews 20+ years ago. They were close on retiring totally from the main tour then but still drew a massive crowd. It’s not always about the score…

It’s very hard to compare to previous eras but I don’t think there is many that would move across from the current bunch - Rory and Scheffler the two obvious

But most are robots now

 

[Fore Right]

Every golf event outside of the majors now feels somewhat diminished due to the split between the PGA Tour and LIV Golf. With many of the world’s best players now competing on different tours, the opportunity to see them all go head-to-head has become increasingly rare, which naturally affects fan interest and the overall strength of most tournament fields.


However, it’s important to put things in perspective. Even before LIV Golf existed, the majority of PGA Tour events didn’t regularly feature all of the top-ranked players. Scheduling, personal preferences, rest periods, and event importance all played a role. The PGA Tour attempted to address this by introducing the Signature Events—limited-field, high-purse tournaments designed to guarantee participation from the biggest stars. While this was a step in the right direction, even that structure has now begun to loosen, with more flexibility returning to player schedules.


Realistically, in the pre-LIV era, fans were only treated to roughly 9 or 10 events per year where all the top talent came together: the 4 major championships and a handful of high-prestige PGA Tour events like The Players, Bay Hill, Memorial, FedEx Cup Playoffs etc. So while the current divide feels more obvious and public, the actual number of "must-watch" events where everyone competes hasn't drastically declined.


The real impact of the split is more about perception and the long-term health of the professional game. Fans now have to follow two separate tours, with different formats, schedules, and coverage, which can dilute the overall narrative and complicate storylines. Rivalries are harder to maintain, player comparisons become more speculative, and it fragments the global audience.


That said, the majors remain the unifying battleground—one of the few places where LIV and PGA Tour players meet—and as long as that continues, the sport still has its most important stages intact which is important.


In short, yes, the split has taken some shine off regular events, but the notion that we always had all the top stars playing against each other week in, week out is a bit of a myth. What we’ve lost is more symbolic than substantial—but symbolism matters in sport, and golf is certainly feeling the effects.

 

[Hobbit]

Every golf event outside of the majors now feels somewhat diminished due to the split between the PGA Tour and LIV Golf. With many of the world’s best players now competing on different tours, the opportunity to see them all go head-to-head has become increasingly rare, which naturally affects fan interest and the overall strength of most tournament fields.


However, it’s important to put things in perspective. Even before LIV Golf existed, the majority of PGA Tour events didn’t regularly feature all of the top-ranked players. Scheduling, personal preferences, rest periods, and event importance all played a role. The PGA Tour attempted to address this by introducing the Signature Events—limited-field, high-purse tournaments designed to guarantee participation from the biggest stars. While this was a step in the right direction, even that structure has now begun to loosen, with more flexibility returning to player schedules.


Realistically, in the pre-LIV era, fans were only treated to roughly 9 or 10 events per year where all the top talent came together: the 4 major championships and a handful of high-prestige PGA Tour events like The Players, Bay Hill, Memorial, FedEx Cup Playoffs etc. So while the current divide feels more obvious and public, the actual number of "must-watch" events where everyone competes hasn't drastically declined.


The real impact of the split is more about perception and the long-term health of the professional game. Fans now have to follow two separate tours, with different formats, schedules, and coverage, which can dilute the overall narrative and complicate storylines. Rivalries are harder to maintain, player comparisons become more speculative, and it fragments the global audience.


That said, the majors remain the unifying battleground—one of the few places where LIV and PGA Tour players meet—and as long as that continues, the sport still has its most important stages intact which is important.


In short, yes, the split has taken some shine off regular events, but the notion that we always had all the top stars playing against each other week in, week out is a bit of a myth. What we’ve lost is more symbolic than substantial—but symbolism matters in sport, and golf is certainly feeling the effects.

Maybe the way to heal the split is to let the players pick and choose which tour they want to play on in any given week.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Maybe the way to heal the split is to let the players pick and choose which tour they want to play on in any given week.

Prob end up with them picking the events in the US on LIV and PGAT

 

[Pin-seeker]

When you say top players who are we talking about him - you have mentioned 24 a number of times and I’m interested to understand who the 24 top players on LIV are when that’s just under half the field

Top players on LIV imo are

Rahm
BDC
Koepka
DJ
Hatton
Niemann

Mickleson is prob just outside maybe now

Cam Smith?

 

[cleveland52]

Ok, people are beyond tired of this back and forth Phil - but here's the truth. If the PGAT won't do a deal with LIV it's because they think they can beat them into submission. If the PIF want to they can withstand any stand off way beyond the time frame that the PGAT can.
The PGAT has 1.5 billion dollars worth of investment, and it hasn't improved, indeed you still see the PGAT mouthpieces repeatedly trying to tell the golfing public how bad LIV is, yet the people that watch LIV, in the main a younger audience, will tell say the opposite.
The PGAT audiences are in decline, the TV deals which provide the vital money to the tour are based on viewing numbers that aren't holding up.... Final of the Valero on Sunday was down by 20 percent.. Imagine you've paid out a significant sum for a product only to find out sales are down by 20% - that is really, really bad.
On the flip side - LIV is in the ascendency, spectators on the ground, viewing figures on TV, places where you can watch - streaming platforms, TV deals, courses and locations the tour visits, social media interactions, product development with prominent golf influencers.. The list goes on.

I watched a clip from the No Laying Up podcast yesterday - they were discussing what would be worse - Cabrera winning The Masters, or a LIV player.. That kind of sums up where 'the best tour in the world' is headed - rock bottom.


The game deserves to be represented on a global basis, it's absolutely vital to growth across the planet - a fundamental aim for Yasir is to increase participation across the continents and start to get more people buying into golf as they do in the US. Is there any logical reason why golf can't be embraced in more countries? I don't think there is. But if the platform that promotes it is based pretty much around the South East of one country, then it makes that growth much more challenging.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got.

My goodness, either you're being totally naive, or the Saudi League is paying you. This is total nonsense, lol.

 

[Depreston]

I get that, but people just sniping and taking really cheap shots at LIV doesn't add up to good gonest debate.

It’s near enough spam at the minute from the LiV boys it’s almost to the point where it’s for a reaction

Then they twist like bairns when they get a reaction or twist like bairns when a negative opinion to their excellencies play thing is posted

 

[Hobbit]

You are not wrong at all , lm far from a fan of the PGAT and its ruined the ET

I grew up watching so many of the Top Europeans playing in top events around Europe

I hate doing the “back in my day,” but I feel it’s a relevant comment. I sat earlier thinking on the number of tour events I used to go to in the U.K.

• The Lawrence Batley International in Leeds.
• The B&H at Fulford, York.
• The Dunlop Masters that became the British Masters. A Quick Look at venues shows how it was played all over the U.K.
• The Johnny Walker - think it was at Gleneagles the last time I went.
• The Penfold tournament, again a a number of venues.
• Jersey Open.
• Welsh Open.
• The greater Manchester Open.
• And a number of different tournaments at St Melion.

Dare say there’s quite a few more. Some only lasted a few years but others have a rich history, all of which had top European players competing. They’re all gone, and in large part I blame the PGA Tour for that, and now they’re looking to beat LIV into submission. History repeating itself?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I hate doing the “back in my day,” but I feel it’s a relevant comment. I sat earlier thinking on the number of tour events I used to go to in the U.K.

• The Lawrence Batley International in Leeds.
• The B&H at Fulford, York.
• The Dunlop Masters that became the British Masters. A Quick Look at venues shows how it was played all over the U.K.
• The Johnny Walker - think it was at Gleneagles the last time I went.
• The Penfold tournament, again a a number of venues.
• Jersey Open.
• Welsh Open.
• The greater Manchester Open.
• And a number of different tournaments at St Melion.

Dare say there’s quite a few more. Some only lasted a few years but others have a rich history, all of which had top European players competing. They’re all gone, and in large part I blame the PGA Tour for that, and now they’re looking to beat LIV into submission. History repeating itself?

Even events like the Suntory Matchplay at Wentworth

These events disappeared due to the loss of sponsers when they couldn’t use tobacco and also when players left to play on the PGAT

The players have a lot of the power still

imo one of the biggest issues was the ranking points

They should imo found a way to have the big European , Aus and Far east events have the same level of ranking points as The Players etc

National Opens should be big point earners - get the players to play in them and then the sponsers follow

 

[cleveland52]

Firstly, I'm a golf fan, not a "LIV supporter" (although obviously I do enjoy LIV).

Those players from the PGA Tour had for many years: retained their cards, reached the final stages of the playoffs, and maintained a top-100 owgr ranking. Of course, we can't predict what might have happened had they stayed, but they were objectively some of the best players on the tour. Likewise, the emerging talents could shine or could fade, but lets not pretend the tour wouldn't have preferred to have them and they wouldn't have enhanced the tour (as Åberg, Dunlap, etc. have done).

PGA Tour expenditure has gone through the roof in the wake of LIV, through a combination of inflating prize funds, PIP, and simply pumping money to Woods, McIlroy, Spieth and Cantlay. The thing is, PIF absolutely can sustain the investment, and their goals extend beyond just creating a profitable golf tour/league.

I'm not the greatest Woods fan, but his effect is unreplaceable. Players like Mickelson, McIlroy and Spieth create a bubble, perhaps even comparable to others who have gone before, but even combined they don't have anything like the effect of Woods.

The tour routinely fails to get round one completed on time in full field events. That is verifiable. It is not hyperbole.

I'm not arguing for one or the other, and would be more than happy for both (and other tours) to continue and be improved, but right now, for many reasons, for me (and my wife) the LIV product is more watchable.

Hopefully, there's no deal so LIV can prove to the world that they can stand alone as a tour, or do they need subsidizing until the end of time?

 

[Pin-seeker]

It’s near enough spam at the minute from the LiV boys it’s almost to the point where it’s for a reaction

Then they twist like bairns when they get a reaction or twist like bairns when a negative opinion to their excellencies play thing is posted

Maybe so,but no one makes people reply to them.
I have no interest in rugby,but I can guarantee if i spent all day just posting negative stuff on that thread & looking for an argument I’d get a message from the mods.

 

[cleveland52]

There is no honest debate with Mel involved.

agreed. mel is a little too sensitive when it comes to liv golf.

mel reminds me of a cult leader. lol

 

[Pin-seeker]

agreed. mel is a little too sensitive when it comes to liv golf.

mel reminds me of a cult leader. lol

I’ve never thought of Mel as being sensitive.
He basically has his little fan club on strings

 

[Mel Smooth]

Wonder if Aramco could step in to help sponsor one of the lesser PGAT events that are struggling….

https://twitter.com/x/status/1909965455969624129

 

[AussieKB]

I just don’t get why anybody feels the need to defend LIV. The PGA tour was far from perfect but it was the place you could mainly see the top players. LIV made that worse by taking some of those top players but not enough to offer a serious alternative. It has diminished the experience of watching professional golf outside of the majors and I can’t see why any golf fan is happy about that.

Maybe because in places like OZ we are seeing top golf pro's playing out here again, after the PGAT killed our small tour Nov-Jan when they introduced their wrap around tournaments.

Outside of the Majors and the Player's, ALL of the top guys did not play together all that much, they changed the rules for Hawaii because a lot of the tournament winners did not turn up.

I would love to put on a tournament at Turnberry since the R & A is not using it, if I was still in the UK I would go, specially with the prospect of a small crowd, no problem getting accommodation etc.

Do you complain about everything you don't like ? or do what most people do and just ignore it, I hope so for your own peace of mind.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Great news for the kingdom

And also seen they’ve had a growing year in other metrics

https://twitter.com/x/status/1909487859246973233

Well done Yas and his gaffer

I won't report it as it's probably relevant, but this is a political argument you are trying to raise here. If the mods want to delete it and my response that's absolutely fine.

The Saudis human rights record is abhorent, but it is built around religious beliefs that are medieval, and valued and practiced by a legal system that is built on Shariah law. As the country moves forwards into their post oil economy, they absolutely have to change the way in which that law is enforced - the leaders of the country know that, they want to move to a progressive society that is more tolerant - let's face it - people will not visit the country en masse unless they do.
Should MBS bring an immediate halt to capital punishment in his country - we'd say yes, but we don't live in Saudi do we - and I'd imagine if he did it would cause a major uprising within the people, particularly amongst those with strong religious beliefs - I suppose he could execute the millions of people that disagreed with his actions but I doubt that would be a good look...

I haven't got time for a long winded post that will probably get taken down anyway, but I look forward to seeing how Saudi Arabia redevelops itself, not just in a physical sense, but in a societal aspect as well - it may well have far reaching implications that I know I'd welcome, living where I do in an area where some Islamic beliefs, and Shariah Law is threatening to break down the actual laws of the land.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I hate doing the “back in my day,” but I feel it’s a relevant comment. I sat earlier thinking on the number of tour events I used to go to in the U.K.

• The Lawrence Batley International in Leeds.
• The B&H at Fulford, York.
• The Dunlop Masters that became the British Masters. A Quick Look at venues shows how it was played all over the U.K.
• The Johnny Walker - think it was at Gleneagles the last time I went.
• The Penfold tournament, again a a number of venues.
• Jersey Open.
• Welsh Open.
• The greater Manchester Open.
• And a number of different tournaments at St Melion.

Dare say there’s quite a few more. Some only lasted a few years but others have a rich history, all of which had top European players competing. They’re all gone, and in large part I blame the PGA Tour for that, and now they’re looking to beat LIV into submission. History repeating itself?

This is the point is was making to LP about when Faldo, Langer and Seve were all playing in Europe every week because the sponsorship and prize money, such as it was compared to today. It was obvious once tobacco and alcohol sponsorship went it would be hard to replace these sponsors suficiently and I wonder if the European tour also wanted a catalyst to move more events to the continent as well. Whatever without these events and the patronage of the top players the tour would never have survived or got to where it is now