LIV Golf

[Slab]

Can I admit to watching liv golf without being a liv fan?

In 2025 I’ve watched more minutes of liv than pgat / dpwt combined, but that’s down to what the tours choose to make available
In minutes it’d be;
Liv
Lpga
Dpwt
Pgat

But I wouldn’t put them in that order as an entertainment product & I’ve likely watched more non-tour YT golf than all the above put together

To view:
Liv are too arcade’ish
Lpga are clueless/careless in editing
Dpwt are too stingy in minutes (frustrating since they have the best product)
Pgat are just too… well, American

 

[Hobbit]

Can I admit to watching liv golf without being a liv fan?

In 2025 I’ve watched more minutes of liv than pgat / dpwt combined, but that’s down to what the tours choose to make available
In minutes it’d be;
Liv
Lpga
Dpwt
Pgat

But I wouldn’t put them in that order as an entertainment product & I’ve likely watched more non-tour YT golf than all the above put together

To view:
Liv are too arcade’ish
Lpga are clueless/careless in editing
Dpwt are too stingy in minutes (frustrating since they have the best product)
Pgat are just too… well, American

Apart from signature events like the Masters, the Open etc I don’t care what tour I’m watching. That said, I find the background noise on the LIV coverage annoying.

 

[Slab]

Apart from signature events like the Masters, the Open etc I don’t care what tour I’m watching. That said, I find the background noise on the LIV coverage annoying.

Yeah I’ll watch most things from tour(s) to bloggers. It’s just down to how they’re presented as to how much I’ll enjoy it
Production wise there's some bloggers without two beans worth of resource that outshine some pro tour content

But at the end of the day they're all golfers trying to put the ball in the hole and the entertainment is when they do/don't achieve that

 

[Arthur Wedge]

There’s very few start up businesses, especially those competing against a virtual monopoly, that will make a profit in its early years. As for the big numbers, e.g. £300m, if the pockets are deep £300m might be nothing more than small change. No doubt both sides do watch their pennies but it feels more like they’re both willing to throw money at either protecting their product or pushing their new product.

The money argument is relevant but I’m not sure it’s a main issue for either side in terms of their budget. Its two different products based on a similar theme. A bit like do I buy a Range Rover or a Ferrari.

In terms of who has the strength in depth vis-a-vis the players, it’s a no brainer. A few marque signings by LIV doesn’t make for the strongest field. But it’s also about what a spectator might want. The team format appeals to some, and in that respect it beats the PGA tour. Some like the noisy hype - yuck - but in that respect it beats the PGA tour. However, the PGA tour wins hands down in terms of regular tournaments with stronger fields. If I was the PGA, I’d just let LIV get on with it - it’s the noisy child in the corner.

What about the courses both sides use, and where both sides use the same venue albeit at different times. In the main, the PGA wins that too. As an aside, I wonder if, because of the weaker fields and players past their best that the courses are shorter/easier at the LIV events…

Apologies to all in this argument, for the want of finding a more diplomatic way of saying it, I find the willie waving ‘we’re better, we’re better’ quite Groundhog Day-ish.

Good post

The money is a key element of everything

The money is why the players went to LIV in the same way that the money was the main reason why the Europeans jumped to the PGAT

The issue for the ET is all the top players left the ET to the PGAT and that for me was the worst thing that’s happened to golf as imo the ET was the most diverse tour with a complete mix of courses they played on

The level of players on the PGAT is still superior to all the tours , a few top players are on LiV and they are missed there is no doubt

Arrival of LIV has been bad for tour golf - its split it all and the whole sport outside the majors is losing viewers

PIF ( Saudi ) wanted to have a footprint in tour golf and the worst thing they did was get into bed with Greg Norman

If they had enhanced the ET then we could have seen two strong tours and a tour to rival the PGAT - and the ET is a true global tour now

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

I get that, but people just sniping and taking really cheap shots at LIV doesn't add up to good gonest debate.

There is no honest debate with Mel involved.

 

[Fore Right]

Peoples arguments for Liv are

1.​

LIV has brought fresh ideas to a sport that can sometimes feel a bit stuck in its old ways and viewed as an old mans/womans game

Whether people love or hate the changes, it’s got people talking about golf, and that’s a win.

2.​

LIV Golf is truly international, with events across multiple continents, helping grow the game in areas of the world previously starved of top professional golf:

This global exposure introduces golf to new fans and markets that might not get much PGA Tour attention.

3.​

LIV has forced the PGA Tour to evolve, increasing prize money, look at improving its TV product, improving player benefits and adding more places for players on the policy board.

Whether you agree with LIV or not, it’s raised the financial bar across the board—and players have more options and bargaining power than ever before.

4.​

Let’s be real: to the sports fan golf can be slow to watch, lasting all day. LIV focuses on entertainment, making it more appealing to a younger and more casual audience:

Golf needs to keep evolving to stay relevant and engage with the younger golf fan, and LIV has injected new energy into how golf is presented.

5.​

The PGA Tour has historically been the only show in town. Now, has a competitor:

Even traditionalists have to admit that LIV has lit a fire under the sport and forced a response.


Peoples Arguments against Liv are

1. Fragmentation Of The Sport​

Although the PGAT could have avoided this by being willing to consider PIF funding in the PGAT instead of pushing back against them and forcing the Pif to create their own tour.

• What it means: LIV created a divide in professional golf by pulling top players away from the PGA and DP World Tours.
• Why it matters: Fans now rarely see the best players in the world compete against each other outside of the majors. The rivalry and drama of head-to-head battles across a season has been diluted.

2. Money Over Merit​

• LIV is backed by the Saudi Public Investment Fund, and the huge guaranteed contracts (e.g., $100M+ deals) mean players are rewarded regardless of performance.
• Critics argue this undermines the competitive spirit of golf, where traditionally you earn your money week by week based on how well you play.

3. No Cut Short Format Events​

• LIV tournaments are only 54 holes (3 rounds) and have no cuts, meaning no one goes home early for poor play.
• Traditionalists say this reduces the challenge and pressure that defines elite golf—and makes it feel more like an exhibition than a true competition.

4. Weakened Global Rankings​

• LIV events don't currently earn OWGR (Official World Golf Ranking) points, which affects players’ ability to qualify for majors and keeps LIV golfers off the world rankings radar.
• As a result, the rankings system itself has been skewed, causing more confusion and division among fans.

5. Legacy And Integrity Concerns​

• Many fans feel LIV's approach devalues golf's traditions—historic courses, season-long narratives, and grinding for titles.
• Some see players joining LIV as "selling out" or abandoning their legacy on the PGA or DP World Tour for massive paydays.

6. Sports Washing Accusations​

• LIV has faced criticism for being a form of sportswashing—using sports to improve the image of a country with a controversial human rights record.
• This has led to moral debates about whether players and fans should support the league.

I totally understand/respect peoples arguments on both sides of the debate but its here to stay for the foreseeable future.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This.

As Hobbit said, there is room for more than one tour, indeed, LIV is an addition to the multiple tours that already existed.
The game would benefit massively if players were allowed to cross over between all the tours, including LIV but despite all the efforts from the people behind LIV, the PGAT stand firm against this. Meanwhile multiple tours are accepting those players and their event profiles are being raised because of it.

The issue the LIV created was bringing a tour onto the doorstep of the PGAT - that’s never going to help , if they started a tour all over the world and ignored the US then it might have helped , but they know where the biggest market is

There are a number of issues with players jumping across tours with LIVs current model

The players are contracted , they can’t jump across and miss LIV events to play on other tours

PGAT players can’t just jump into LIV events

LIV is a closed shop - what the LIV players wanted was to be able to play on the PGAT when there was no LIV events - cherry picking

When it comes to multiple tours “accepting” LIV players

That acceptance is based on - PIF throwing money at the Asian Tour

In regards the DP tour - their rules are still the same , anyone can be a member providing you follow the rules

 

[Hobbit]

Good post

The money is a key element of everything

The money is why the players went to LIV in the same way that the money was the main reason why the Europeans jumped to the PGAT

The issue for the ET is all the top players left the ET to the PGAT and that for me was the worst thing that’s happened to golf as imo the ET was the most diverse tour with a complete mix of courses they played on

The level of players on the PGAT is still superior to all the tours , a few top players are on LiV and they are missed there is no doubt

Arrival of LIV has been bad for tour golf - its split it all and the whole sport outside the majors is losing viewers

PIF ( Saudi ) wanted to have a footprint in tour golf and the worst thing they did was get into bed with Greg Norman

If they had enhanced the ET then we could have seen two strong tours and a tour to rival the PGAT - and the ET is a true global tour now

If LIV is bad for golf, as you say, then the PGA Tour can be viewed the same way in what they’ve done to the European tour for at least the last 40 years. Some of us remember Seve battling the PGA Tour over its rules on where he could play.

 

[Pin-seeker]

Apart from signature events like the Masters, the Open etc I don’t care what tour I’m watching. That said, I find the background noise on the LIV coverage annoying.

I wasn’t a fan of the music when I went to jcb last year.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If LIV is bad for golf, as you say, then the PGA Tour can be viewed the same way in what they’ve done to the European tour for at least the last 40 years. Some of us remember Seve battling the PGA Tour over its rules on where he could play.

You are not wrong at all , lm far from a fan of the PGAT and its ruined the ET

I grew up watching so many of the Top Europeans playing in top events around Europe

 

[HomerJSimpson]

You are not wrong at all , lm far from a fan of the PGAT and its ruined the ET

I grew up watching so many of the Top Europeans playing in top events around Europe

Different era. There are so many influences on player choices this year including the prize money in the US v DP tour and ranking points which has eligibility into some events and of course the RC. Back in the day especially with things like tobacco and alcohol sponsorship of events the purses were big for the time in Europe which is why the likes of Seve, Faldo, Lyle etc played in them. The ability to play in the US was far less especially until Seve went to war with the PGA

 

[Mel Smooth]

There is no honest debate with Mel involved.

I pray that you don’t hang on the words of Eamon Lynch and Brandel Chamblee making comments like that.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

I pray that you don’t hang on the words of Eamon Lynch and Brandel Chamblee making comments like that.

Who are they

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Who are they

Not even household names in their own house.

Actually I know who Chamblee is and he makes McGinley look good as a pundit and commentator

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I pray that you don’t hang on the words of Eamon Lynch and Brandel Chamblee making comments like that.

The one I have noticed with the LIV accounts on Social media and LIV fans generally is this strange idea that golf media is “corrupt” - I don’t know many who actually care about what people within the media say - but it’s a very strange “battle ground” for LIV

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

The one I have noticed with the LIV accounts on Social media and LIV fans generally is this strange idea that golf media is “corrupt” - I don’t know many who actually care about what people within the media say - but it’s a very strange “battle ground” for LIV

Corrupt golf media = someone said something mean about Liv

It’s usually trotted out as a diversion tactic when they don’t have an answer.

 

[Smigger79]

I just don’t get why anybody feels the need to defend LIV. The PGA tour was far from perfect but it was the place you could mainly see the top players. LIV made that worse by taking some of those top players but not enough to offer a serious alternative. It has diminished the experience of watching professional golf outside of the majors and I can’t see why any golf fan is happy about that.

 

[Jigger]

Can I admit to watching liv golf without being a liv fan?

In 2025 I’ve watched more minutes of liv than pgat / dpwt combined, but that’s down to what the tours choose to make available
In minutes it’d be;
Liv
Lpga
Dpwt
Pgat

But I wouldn’t put them in that order as an entertainment product & I’ve likely watched more non-tour YT golf than all the above put together

To view:
Liv are too arcade’ish
Lpga are clueless/careless in editing
Dpwt are too stingy in minutes (frustrating since they have the best product)
Pgat are just too… well, American

A lot of the golf I watch outside the majors is stuff to have on in the background. LIV gives me additional options to do that. I hate the music as it doesn’t come across well on tv and the shotgun format makes it hard to understand who has difficult holes still to play but it’s good to have more options.

People are saying that the new invites on the PGA are ducking talent out of the DPWT but I selfishly want to see more European’s on the PGA as the time it’s on is much better for me.

 

[wjemather]

I just don’t get why anybody feels the need to defend LIV. The PGA tour was far from perfect but it was the place you could mainly see the top players. LIV made that worse by taking some of those top players but not enough to offer a serious alternative. It has diminished the experience of watching professional golf outside of the majors and I can’t see why any golf fan is happy about that.

There's only one tournament that has really been diminished in any measurable way as far as I can tell, and that's The Players.

• all the top players were in the majors - a small number are now missing out (although more will in future as exemptions expire), but it hasn't (yet) changed the fields to the extent that they are diminished, and is unlikely to as the majors are creating exemptions and extending invitations to LIV players
• almost all the top players were in The Players - at least a couple of dozen are now missing, so this is the only tournament that has been significantly diminished by PGA Tour suspensions
• most of the top players were in the WGCs, but a few opted to skip at least one of them, and the PGA Tour was in the process of killing them off so they can be ignored
• most of the top players were in the big tour events (Bay Hill, Muirfield Village, etc.), but many opted to skip at least one of them so with almost all the tour's remaining top players now attending, missing the LIV guys doesn't diminish them at all
• a sprinkling of top players appeared in mid-tier tour events - no real change.
• almost none of the top players appeared in lesser tour events - no real change.

In addition to the majors and PGA Tour, we now have a 14 event circuit with half the events outside the US showcasing dozens of the world's best players in a condensed format with coverage that shows more golf shots than commercials and shows more players, and an elevated Asian Tour series that many of the top players from LIV participate in.

The one tour that has been diminished is the European Tour, but that is the work of the PGA Tour aided by Keith Pelley and a few others on the ET board, not LIV.

 

[Hobbit]

I just don’t get why anybody feels the need to defend LIV. The PGA tour was far from perfect but it was the place you could mainly see the top players. LIV made that worse by taking some of those top players but not enough to offer a serious alternative. It has diminished the experience of watching professional golf outside of the majors and I can’t see why any golf fan is happy about that.

I’m not defending LIV but I disagree with diminishing the experience of watching golf. I’ve watched golf across Europe, from feeder tours like the Tartan Tour through to both male & female main tours and the seniors. There’s loads of good golf played by countless unknowns, sometimes even setting course records.

Equally, I feel that the fast-food mentality of just showing highlights of a well known golfer getting par after par when they could be showing another, lesser known golfer on a bit of a run doesn’t do the sport any favours either.

Let’s not forget, not all players, especially those who aren’t fighting to keep their card, sometimes take weeks off.