BubbaP
Occasional Player of Golf
It's back... 
LIV Golf
- Thread starter MarkT
- Start date
AussieKB
Well-known member
need a bigger carousel I think.
Depreston
Club Champion
Come on boys we aināt wanted just let Fore Right and Mel just post X links to each other
Mel Smooth
Hacker
Ok, people are beyond tired of this back and forth Phil - but here's the truth. If the PGAT won't do a deal with LIV it's because they think they can beat them into submission. If the PIF want to they can withstand any stand off way beyond the time frame that the PGAT can.
The PGAT has 1.5 billion dollars worth of investment, and it hasn't improved, indeed you still see the PGAT mouthpieces repeatedly trying to tell the golfing public how bad LIV is, yet the people that watch LIV, in the main a younger audience, will tell say the opposite.
The PGAT audiences are in decline, the TV deals which provide the vital money to the tour are based on viewing numbers that aren't holding up.... Final of the Valero on Sunday was down by 20 percent.. Imagine you've paid out a significant sum for a product only to find out sales are down by 20% - that is really, really bad.
On the flip side - LIV is in the ascendency, spectators on the ground, viewing figures on TV, places where you can watch - streaming platforms, TV deals, courses and locations the tour visits, social media interactions, product development with prominent golf influencers.. The list goes on.
I watched a clip from the No Laying Up podcast yesterday - they were discussing what would be worse - Cabrera winning The Masters, or a LIV player.. That kind of sums up where 'the best tour in the world' is headed - rock bottom.
The game deserves to be represented on a global basis, it's absolutely vital to growth across the planet - a fundamental aim for Yasir is to increase participation across the continents and start to get more people buying into golf as they do in the US. Is there any logical reason why golf can't be embraced in more countries? I don't think there is. But if the platform that promotes it is based pretty much around the South East of one country, then it makes that growth much more challenging.
If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got.
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Pin-seeker
Well-known member
Thought it might have stopped when the sun came out,but obviously some have nothing better to do
The obsession goes on
Anything from next to nothing will be an increaseLIV have basically increased their final round viewing figure by about 4000% since the last event.
Avante
Beezerk
Money List Winner
Beezerk
Money List Winner
I get that, but people just sniping and taking really cheap shots at LIV doesn't add up to good gonest debate.
The Squirrel
Well-known member
I donāt get this. The PGAT isnāt bleeding players or money in the current status quo - itās still,a profitable organisation (in a non-profit sort of a way - thereās so much money sloshing round that most tournaments are non-profits and loads gets bled off to charities - something that could be quietly reduced should the purse strings ever need tightening). If things do settle to stand-off and stalemate broadly as they are now then thereās no timeframe where the PGAT loses and dies - they can continue as they are indefinitely - theyāre not the ones bleeding cash.
The question isnāt whether Saudi CAN withstand an indefinite huge annual cash bleed for little new benefit or progress (we know they can); the question is whether they WILL if it becomes clear that the prize of controlling/owning world elite golf - or a significant part of it - is not achievable.
AussieKB
Well-known member
Surely by now good honest debate has been left behind, it's who can get to the bottom of the barrel first.
Thereās very few start up businesses, especially those competing against a virtual monopoly, that will make a profit in its early years. As for the big numbers, e.g. Ā£300m, if the pockets are deep Ā£300m might be nothing more than small change. No doubt both sides do watch their pennies but it feels more like theyāre both willing to throw money at either protecting their product or pushing their new product.
The money argument is relevant but Iām not sure itās a main issue for either side in terms of their budget. Its two different products based on a similar theme. A bit like do I buy a Range Rover or a Ferrari.
In terms of who has the strength in depth vis-a-vis the players, itās a no brainer. A few marque signings by LIV doesnāt make for the strongest field. But itās also about what a spectator might want. The team format appeals to some, and in that respect it beats the PGA tour. Some like the noisy hype - yuck - but in that respect it beats the PGA tour. However, the PGA tour wins hands down in terms of regular tournaments with stronger fields. If I was the PGA, Iād just let LIV get on with it - itās the noisy child in the corner.
What about the courses both sides use, and where both sides use the same venue albeit at different times. In the main, the PGA wins that too. As an aside, I wonder if, because of the weaker fields and players past their best that the courses are shorter/easier at the LIV eventsā¦
Apologies to all in this argument, for the want of finding a more diplomatic way of saying it, I find the willie waving āweāre better, weāre betterā quite Groundhog Day-ish.
AussieKB
Well-known member
Are you trying to say your willie is bigger then my willie ?????
WorldHandicapSystem
Well-known member
Neither does the constant stream of outlandish claims that are posted without a shred of evidence.
wjemather
Well-known member
The tour may have avoided another exodus this past winter, it has still has lost more than two dozen of its best players, including more than half a dozen of the very best, and a sizable proportion of its biggest personalities (and crowd pullers), and a missed out on at least a couple of potential future stars.
Having increased prize money to compete with LIV on that front, PGA Tour made a loss of over $62m in 2023; having been bailed out (short-term) by massive investment from FSG. That isn't something that is sustainable.
Viewing figures are down because the run-of-the-mill PGA Tour product and production is dismal and stale after to two decades of complacency and neglect as they rode the Tiger train. That Tiger-bubble is fading and the tour can't keep teasing his appearance to drive interest. The need to fix it but it's readily apparent that they don't understand what the problem is (it's not clear that they even recognise there is a problem), let alone how to fix it. That they routinely can't get the field round the course on a Thursday in perfect weather is symptomatic of the incompetence that is leading the tour.
I get that you are a solid LIV supporter but pretty much all of your points can be countered.
2 dozen of its best playersā¦ I donāt really want to got through them name by name but hereās a thought. Players rise and fall in the rankings all the time. Even if it is two dozen, neither you nor I can hand on heart say they would maintain their ranking, improve it or fall off a cliff in any given season. As for potential future stars, some would become stars but, equally, far more shine briefly then fall back to being journeymen.
Money & investment; the tour has seen rising, falling and rising, falling investment throughout its life. Neither side can, in the long term, sustain massive investment. Thatās obvious. Products have a value, and spending more than they are worth is just plain stupid. For LIV its seed money, and I understand the business cycle in that respect.
Tiger-bubble; there was an Arnie-bubble, then a Jack-bubble, the Seve-bubbleā¦ then, then, then. Another player will rise and thereāll be another bubble.
As for your āroutinely canāt get the field round the courseā¦ā Hyperbole, and it diminishes your argument, credibility in your argument.
Thereās room for both products, and there should be more than one product. Imagine if someone told you, you could only have a Toyota Yaris. LIV appeals more to a different demographic. Why canāt they co-exist alongside the PGA Tour? Why does it have to be LIV good, tour bad, LIV bad, tour good?
AussieKB
Well-known member
I don't think LIV fans/people are calling for the demise of the PGAT, but the same cannot be said the other way round.
wjemather
Well-known member
Firstly, I'm a golf fan, not a "LIV supporter" (although obviously I do enjoy LIV).
Those players from the PGA Tour had for many years: retained their cards, reached the final stages of the playoffs, and maintained a top-100 owgr ranking. Of course, we can't predict what might have happened had they stayed, but they were objectively some of the best players on the tour. Likewise, the emerging talents could shine or could fade, but lets not pretend the tour wouldn't have preferred to have them and they wouldn't have enhanced the tour (as Ć berg, Dunlap, etc. have done).
PGA Tour expenditure has gone through the roof in the wake of LIV, through a combination of inflating prize funds, PIP, and simply pumping money to Woods, McIlroy, Spieth and Cantlay. The thing is, PIF absolutely can sustain the investment, and their goals extend beyond just creating a profitable golf tour/league.
I'm not the greatest Woods fan, but his effect is unreplaceable. Players like Mickelson, McIlroy and Spieth create a bubble, perhaps even comparable to others who have gone before, but even combined they don't have anything like the effect of Woods.
The tour routinely fails to get round one completed on time in full field events. That is verifiable. It is not hyperbole.
I'm not arguing for one or the other, and would be more than happy for both (and other tours) to continue and be improved, but right now, for many reasons, for me (and my wife) the LIV product is more watchable.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
This.
As Hobbit said, there is room for more than one tour, indeed, LIV is an addition to the multiple tours that already existed.
The game would benefit massively if players were allowed to cross over between all the tours, including LIV but despite all the efforts from the people behind LIV, the PGAT stand firm against this. Meanwhile multiple tours are accepting those players and their event profiles are being raised because of it.
Redtraveller
Club Champion
I watched that last night. They advertised it when in was watching on the app the other day so I was expecting it to be a bit like the Netflix one. Thought there was some good bits but it was only about 21 mins long and I felt like I was waiting for it to start all the time. Was a bit disappointed to be honest.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
It was originally broadcast on Fox so I guess the run time was to fit around a half hour slot with commercials.
