LIV Golf

[AddisonRoad]

A lot of the issue is that golfers are expecting to earn more than they're worth. They think they should be paid comparably to other professional sports despite attracting much less viewership/attention. LIV has allowed many of the golfers to pretend they're actually worth the huge paydays they're being offered, when in reality, it's just free money (completely decoupled from the value that they're generating). If Saudis ever pull the plug, professional golfers will quickly realise the market price of their skills.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The PGAT don’t have the players to attract the interest to their tour. Any PE money pumped in will also be expected to produce a return.

With sponsors already leaving, how does the PGAT business model stack up?

The PGAT has plenty of players to attract interest - when did everyone leave, LIV hasn’t stolen everyone - still a lot of big players on the PGAT including the biggest name playing

And they have replaced the sponsers that have left and will replace the ones that will end - the PGAT has a lot of Trump cards still in its favour.

All LIV has right now is a bottomless pit that can feed players greed

 

[Bdill93]

If Brooks brings anything like his major game to LIV, you’re 100% right.

Are you forgetting the 2023 MVP?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Are you forgetting the 2023 MVP?

Not at all.

Brooks and Gooch could easily take wins in half the events between them, Kokrak should back them up with some points and GMac can keep them all updated on the horse racing arm of the franchise.

There’ll be added competition for wins this year of course. Looking forwards to seeing how all the new arrivals get on now once they tee off on Friday.

 

[Jimaroid]

I honestly don’t think it’s worth my time discussing this with you if that’s the best you can do mate, and it’s a a discussion that’s been done countless times before.

We can however count how many times you’ve lost that debate because it’s all of them.

 

[Beezerk]

We can however count how many times you’ve lost that debate because it’s all of them.

Howay lad you’re better than that.

 

[Mel Smooth]

We can however count how many times you’ve lost that debate because it’s all of them.

For clarity, LIV is a long term investment and forms part of a long term business plan.
I KNOW they aren’t making money now, and I don’t need to be debating that with anybody on here, regardless of which side of the argument they are on.

So, I can’t be wrong on something that we all agree on can I?

But long term, there is clearly an opportunity for the Saudis to use LIV, and golf as part of viable financial plan.

If a domestic tour with an ageing audience can do it in the form of the PGAT, then there’s no reason why other tours can’t make returns, especially if they are working in new territories and appealing to different demographics

 

[Deleted member 1147]

For clarity, LIV is a long term investment and forms part of a long term business plan.
I KNOW they aren’t making money now, and I don’t need to be debating that with anybody on here, regardless of which side of the argument they are on.

So, I can’t be wrong on something that we all agree on can I?

But long term, there is clearly an opportunity for the Saudis to use LIV, and golf as part of viable financial plan.

If a domestic tour with an ageing audience can do it in the form of the PGAT, then there’s no reason why other tours can’t make returns, especially if they are working in new territories and appealing to different demographics

Where was it announced that it has an aging audience?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Where was it announced that it has an aging audience?

We’re all ageing James, infact we’re all dying.

Let me correct my error, it has an aged audience. Average viewer age is 65 I believe.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For clarity, LIV is a long term investment and forms part of a long term business plan.
I KNOW they aren’t making money now, and I don’t need to be debating that with anybody on here, regardless of which side of the argument they are on.

So, I can’t be wrong on something that we all agree on can I?

But long term, there is clearly an opportunity for the Saudis to use LIV, and golf as part of viable financial plan.

If a domestic tour with an ageing audience can do it in the form of the PGAT, then there’s no reason why other tours can’t make returns, especially if they are working in new territories and appealing to different demographics

It’s a “domestic” tour in the biggest golf market in the world with multiple media deals and sponsers that allow it to make a return

What “new” territories are LIV going to that a current tour is not ?

The reason why the DP needed to get help from the PGAT was because those “new territories” you take about arent big enough to sustain a tour

LIV needs to find over £1bn each year to make a return - and they need to do that from 14 events with only 3 days of golf

That’s going to need a heck of a massive media deal - in markets where golf is way down the list , with the level of prize money and guarantees to players they are decades from being anywhere near getting a return

 

[Deleted member 1147]

We’re all ageing James, infact we’re all dying.

Let me correct my error, it has an aged audience. Average viewer age is 65 I believe.

that's different then...as for every old'un who dies off there will be a young'un taking their place

 

[WGCRider]

The PGAT don’t have the players to attract the interest to their tour. Any PE money pumped in will also be expected to produce a return.

With sponsors already leaving, how does the PGAT business model stack up?

You make an interesting point about how the business models stack up. For what it's worth (nothing) here is my view;

Players

PGA – near infinite supply of top quality players
European Tour – In the way it operates now as a tier above local tours. No issue with quality players with local interest. But not the marque golfers. HOWEVER – as the only place where LIV golfers can earn OWR points and entry to majors or Ryder cup they will attract the top players without having to pay for them to be there. This is perhaps currently it’s biggest USP
LIV – Can have whoever they want, it’s just money

Income

PGA – Of course they want more but currently solid income from broadcast and sponsors.
European Tour – Solid legacy sponsors for flagship events but reliant on UAE to fund tour.
LIV – Basically don’t make money rely on (quite literally) one guy for income

Venues and broadcast

PGA – Venues that people are familiar with on TV at the perfect time for viewers. It’s biggest selling point.
European Tour – Less than handful of big venues. Nobody is tuning in to watch day 1 of the Jo’burg open but when the big boys turn up (see point about players) it’s worth watching.
LIV – As of today venues nobody cares about (other than maybe Valderrama) and 2 years down the line they still haven’t found someone who will pay to broadcast it. Sorry I mean “we show it for free on youtube to grow the game”

Team format

PGA – Don’t have, don’t care
European Tour - Don’t have, don’t care
LIV – “It’s worth billions and Nike want to buy one”

 

[Mel Smooth]

It’s a “domestic” tour in the biggest golf market in the world with multiple media deals and sponsers that allow it to make a return

What “new” territories are LIV going to that a current tour is not ?

The reason why the DP needed to get help from the PGAT was because those “new territories” you take about are big enough to sustain a tour

LIV needs to find over £1bn each year to make a return - and they need to do that from 14 events with only 3 days of golf

That’s going to need a heck of a massive media deal - in markets where golf is way down the list , with the level of prize money and guarantees to players they are decades from being anywhere near getting a return

Phil. LIV DO NOT need to get a return over 14 events. They need LIV to make a positive impact on the countries growth as part of Vision 2030. This is basic info that is freely available and as somebody who has made a significant contribution to the thread, you are well aware of that, but for some bizarre reason, you keep on choosing to ignore it.

 

[wjemather]

The reason why the DP needed to get help from the PGAT was because those “new territories” you take about are big enough to sustain a tour

This statement feels made up to suit an opinion.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Phil. LIV DO NOT need to get a return over 14 events. They need LIV to make a positive impact on the countries growth as part of Vision 2030. This is basic info that is freely available and as somebody who has made a significant contribution to the thread, you are well aware of that, but for some bizarre reason, you keep on choosing to ignore it.

I responded to this quote that you made about tours getting a return


“If a domestic tour with an ageing audience can do it in the form of the PGAT, then there’s no reason why other tours can’t make returns, especially if they are working in new territories and appealing to different demographics”

So are you not talking about LIV tour getting a return ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This statement feels made up to suit an opinion.

So the ET was sustainable in all the countries in played ? It was able to gain the right level of media deals and sponsers from all those areas ? So it didn’t need to sell out to DP World and then The PGAT to enable them to increase the prize funding

 

[Mel Smooth]

I responded to this quote that you made about tours getting a return


“If a domestic tour with an ageing audience can do it in the form of the PGAT, then there’s no reason why other tours can’t make returns, especially if they are working in new territories and appealing to different demographics”

So are you not talking about LIV tour getting a return ?

No, I’m talking about the PIF getting a return.
For the record, half the golf courses being built in the world are between Asia and the middle east, that’s a lot of development going on that’s going to result in wasted money if we all took the view that the USA is the only market worth exploring with regards to golf.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

This statement feels made up to suit an opinion.

I imagine Philip's learnt to do that from reading this thread...there's a lot of it about you know!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No, I’m talking about the PIF getting a return.
For the record, half the golf courses being built in the world are between Asia and the middle east, that’s a lot of development going on that’s going to result in wasted money if we all took the view that the USA is the only market worth exploring with regards to golf.

Have you got a link ?

And building new golf courses is great - still has to get people playing on them and most of the ones in the Middle East aren’t exactly full and there are still huge cultural steps and difference to make Saudi anywhere close to be a golfing holiday destination

But will be interesting to see where the new courses are - the US are certainly building new ones on established estates and new ones.

 

[Bdill93]

It’s a “domestic” tour in the biggest golf market in the world with multiple media deals and sponsers that allow it to make a return

What “new” territories are LIV going to that a current tour is not ?

The reason why the DP needed to get help from the PGAT was because those “new territories” you take about arent big enough to sustain a tour

LIV needs to find over £1bn each year to make a return - and they need to do that from 14 events with only 3 days of golf

That’s going to need a heck of a massive media deal - in markets where golf is way down the list , with the level of prize money and guarantees to players they are decades from being anywhere near getting a return

You've been into golf longer than me and this is a genuine question:

Why is the Asian market not strong enough/ has a tour not succeeded there before?

Reason for asking is that I've heard before than Srixon is the largest golf manufacturer in the world and its mainly down to the Asian market, are they just play golf heavy and watch golf "light" so to speak?

I just feel like there must be untapped revenue there but unsure if tours have tried and failed over there?

I appreciate there is the "Asian tour" but the numbers there aren't big for such a large playing population

Not sure if I've actually made any sense here but I'm hoping you catch the general scope of what I'm asking?