LIV Golf

[Ian_George]

You're views epitomise the defendants of the PGA Tour. You're bitter because some players have left for something that they obviousy feel is better, you are annoyed that they might not play in some of the majors somewhere down the line, but you don't think they should because the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
Essentially, you want everything to stay as it was - Golf, Radio 2 style. Pipe and slippers, marvellous.

That's fine, but some people like something different in addition to what already exists - LIV delivers that in plenty of aspects. There's room for both, one doesn't have to destroy the other - so why all the resentment towards LIV, it's not going to do you any good, and it won't change what has already happened.

To me, it's 1) the exclusive (invitation only) nature of the setup - that effectively reduces (via PGAT's reaction) quality of tournaments and 2) their apparent demands that the rest of the world change (OWGR process) for their setup cf complying with the established process!

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Has this not already been answered? Because LIV golf has an impact on golf outside of LIV. Because it removes players, and some top players, from events and tours that most golf fans have enjoyed watching.
.

The PGA Tours actions of being challenged by another business didn't contribute to the above?
Liv did nothing wrong, PGA Tour doesn't own golf, if they do then they will lose the anti trust suit.
Please tell me if you think no one should be able to challenge employees of another business with an alternative offer of employment or if you think that shouldn't apply to pro Golfers only?

PGAT thought they were untouchable and no one of any note would actually leave their tour.
Their arrogance was in the end their weakness and a huge misjudgement.
Their strategy of lifetime bans has clearly not been a deterrent, in fact I would say the current lack of OWGR points is a bigger deterrent right now and saving them from losing more big names.

We are where we are now with this fractured golf world because of actions on both sides of the fence.

 

[ExRabbit]

Exrabbit, does that clarify it for you?

Well it clarifies that Swango1980 takes a sadistic pleasure in engaging in verbose exchanges with other posters of a different opinion to themself. Each to their own I suppose, but I still can't fathom why someone would be bothered to spend so much time on it, especially when you could just bang your head on the wall for a bit and then go down to the pub and have a pint or something instead.

 

[Swango1980]

The PGA Tours actions of being challenged by another business didn't contribute to the above?
Liv did nothing wrong, PGA Tour doesn't own golf, if they do then they will lose the anti trust suit.
Please tell me if you think no one should be able to challenge employees of another business with an alternative offer of employment or if you think that shouldn't apply to pro Golfers only?

PGAT thought they were untouchable and no one of any note would actually leave their tour.
Their arrogance was in the end their weakness and a huge misjudgement.
Their strategy of lifetime bans has clearly not been a deterrent, in fact I would say the current lack of OWGR points is a bigger deterrent right now and saving them from losing more big names.

We are where we are now with this fractured golf world because of actions on both sides of the fence.

I've already said, I have no shares in the PGAT. I wouldn't give a hoot if the best golfers in the world played on PGA, DP World Tour or the Hooters Tour. But, it just so happens that the PGA Tour was were they could be found, and it has taken decades for it to build it, and improve it, to make it attractive to both the golfers and the fans.

Of course, LIV are welcome to create another tour, and players are welcome to.join it. That is up to them. But, just don't expect the rest of the golfing world to bow down to their requests. Especially the PGAT who they clearly have the biggest relative impact on

 

[Swango1980]

Well it clarifies that Swango1980 takes a sadistic pleasure in engaging in verbose exchanges with other posters of a different opinion to themself. Each to their own I suppose, but I still can't fathom why someone would be bothered to spend so much time on it, especially when you could just bang your head on the wall for a bit and then go down to the pub and have a pint or something instead.

You could be describing anyone on here who has posted continuously.

I gave my detailed response. If you fail to understand, why bother even asking? I don't understand people who.come on to forums, and express their confusion as to why others wish to express their opinions. I think you have spent a little to much time drinking and banging your head against a wall to be fair

 

[ExRabbit]

You could be describing anyone on here who has posted continuously.

I gave my detailed response. If you fail to understand, why bother even asking? I don't understand people who.come on to forums, and express their confusion as to why others wish to express their opinions. I think you have spent a little to much time drinking and banging your head against a wall to be fair

I asked a simple question to try to understand why some people like to spend so much of their spare time engaging in discussions which are pretty much endless. I understood your detailed response but it's always nice to be patronised at the end of a busy night of head-banging and drinking. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Good night.

 

[Ian_George]

I asked a simple question to try to understand why some people like to spend so much of their spare time engaging in discussions which are pretty much endless. I understood your detailed response but it's always nice to be patronised at the end of a busy night of head-banging and drinking. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Good night.

Luke 4:23 applies - for 2 reasons!

 

[AussieKB]

No, utter rubbish... it's not like it at all, there is no comparison between the limited field LIV tour inviting players to play exhibition golf and Euro players having free market decision to move between tours at will.

The PGA did not take 'all' the Euro players as your hyperbole states. Yes some players went to see if they could increase earnings while giving them a bigger chance of winning 3 of the Majors, however unlike LIV, there was no golden hello and no guarantee of earnings, they did it at risk and generally faired a lot better than antipodean players, I seem to remember

Why have a go at antipodean players ? they seem to punch above their weight when you look at population in all sports.

Now we are finally getting some of them back playing here, which can ONLY GROW THE GAME

 

[Ian_George]

....
the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
....

1. That's the fault of LIV, which doesn't comply with OWGR 'consistency' rules! But I believe LIV is actually happy with that situation, so won't change!
2. Checking the ranking system referenced on Twitter that includes LIV players (datagolf), many of the LIV players I've looked at are slipping down the rankings anyway!

And lack of access to OWGR points isn't the huge issue that many assume! It's the format that's the problem, whichever (current) method is used!

In last weeks ranking Cam Smith is actually ranked down 1 to 7th compared to OWGR of no change and 3rd; Louis Oosthuizen is down 4 to 49 cf OWGR down 2 to 45 Brooks Koepke Down 1 to 60th cf OWGR -1 to 42 BdC down 3 to 75 cf OWGR down 2 to 54
There ARE a few adversely affected (Dustin Johnson an obvious one and Sergio's numbers are quite different)

But, to me, access to OWGR won't help much for points allocation; the entire format has issues wrt ranking points allocation! I'm certain having qualifying and a cut would boost points, as would (though highly unlikely) increased fields! As is, the OWGR points allocated to a LIV event would be very low anyway (Korn Ferry level or perhaps less)!

It's only frequent access to PGAT level points - so access to PGAT tournaments - that will provide the points required to boost rankings, whatever format is used!

 

[ExRabbit]

Luke 4:23 applies - for 2 reasons!

Relax - I was just asking a simple question in the first place.

Wtf is wrong with you guys? No wonder forum members don't want to enter conversations.

I guess there is a reason why most of my posts are in the Wordle thread and I still haven't got to 700 posts in 8 years!

I'll take my leave of this thread henceforth.

 

[BubbaP]

Simply not allowing the two primary LIV cheerleaders in this one would have the same effect; those who want to discuss it still could in one thread and I’m sure that the temperature would cool somewhat. That the main cheerleader cannot see any wrong in LIV is the primary cause of any issues in this thread in my opinion.

Yeah, fair enough ?. Am certainly no evangelist but in the spirit of discussion & understanding, for this..
"..when the truth is it's nearer to golf's equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters. I've nothing against the Harlem Globetrotters, it's great light-hearted entertainment but serious sport it ain't. "

Liking it definitely isn't compulsory & entirely your perogative, but if this is one definition of sport

Am drawn to the 'serious' word. Curious, for you what isn't serious?

And for balance, would you consider things like Hero World Challenge & CJ Cup serious sport?
Cheers.

 

[Swango1980]

I asked a simple question to try to understand why some people like to spend so much of their spare time engaging in discussions which are pretty much endless. I understood your detailed response but it's always nice to be patronised at the end of a busy night of head-banging and drinking. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Good night.

Ohh, the irony.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Handbags away please !

 

[BubbaP]

1. That's the fault of LIV, which doesn't comply with OWGR 'consistency' rules! But I believe LIV is actually happy with that situation, so won't change!
2. Checking the ranking system referenced on Twitter that includes LIV players (datagolf), many of the LIV players I've looked at are slipping down the rankings anyway!

And lack of access to OWGR points isn't the huge issue that many assume! It's the format that's the problem, whichever (current) method is used!

In last weeks ranking Cam Smith is actually ranked down 1 to 7th compared to OWGR of no change and 3rd; Louis Oosthuizen is down 4 to 49 cf OWGR down 2 to 45 Brooks Koepke Down 1 to 60th cf OWGR -1 to 42 BdC down 3 to 75 cf OWGR down 2 to 54
There ARE a few adversely affected (Dustin Johnson an obvious one and Sergio's numbers are quite different)

But, to me, access to OWGR won't help much for points allocation; the entire format has issues wrt ranking points allocation! I'm certain having qualifying and a cut would boost points, as would (though highly unlikely) increased fields! As is, the OWGR points allocated to a LIV event would be very low anyway (Korn Ferry level or perhaps less)!

It's only frequent access to PGAT level points - so access to PGAT tournaments - that will provide the points required to boost rankings, whatever format is used!

I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly. Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it could be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though

 

[AussieKB]

I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly. Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it could be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though

View attachment 45147

Think they might have to delete this.....

 

[Ian_George]

I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly. Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it could be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though

View attachment 45147

Indeed, I smiled when I first saw that 'Our History' screen too! A classic demonstration of the difference between 'Continually' and 'Continuously'!

Points-wise, the field total value is made up or the (the sum of) points for direct entry players PLUS qualifying entrants, but the actual allocation of those points is only to those who 'make the cut'. So if, say, Rory plays an event, his 9.5072 current average gets added to the Field value, but only 'gets used' by those who make the cut. The qualifying list probably doesn't contribute a huge amount of points (other they wouldn't need to qualify!), but ensures access to play is 'open'. If a 'star' fails to make the cut, it's a 'bonus' to those that do. LIV has 'deficiencies' in both areas that would require downward adjustment of the 'points to be allocated' value, though I have no idea by how much.

FWIW,. It IS 'hard to do, at least initially'! And a chore to update every week - but the process can provide a return. Datagolf is only provides the top 100 list for free.

As for not immediately allocating points, I believe that's partly a 'standardising and compliance' exercise and, perhaps, some info gathering to determine other parameters. I'm certain much of the initial values already exist - as they'll be very similar - if not identical - to ones for the occasional Invitational and No Cut events in other Tours.

 

[r0wly86]

Yes Europe as a continent clearly predates 1979 ? But in the Ryder cup golfing context it was new, and an evolution of many decades of GB&I vs USA in the Ryder Cup…

The IPL in cricket and plenty of franchise cricket / rugby teams in the modern era in the UK and Australia have worked…it all has to start from somewhere ?‍

IPL is an interesting one, in the UK most people I know who watch it don't follow a team, but maybe a favourite player or players, Rugby franchises have historically been a nightmare, ripping up historic club support and rivalries trying to create something new. Imagine the Premiership adopting franchising and someone telling Exeter, Bath, Bristol, and Gloucester that they have to support the West Country Giants or something

 

[r0wly86]

Personally, I wouldn't want to see the threads split and people not allowed to post in it... What happened to freedom of speech / opinion.. We all have the choice of reading or not reading this thread... It is only golf at the end of the day.. Whilst I don't agree with some others views and opinions I do oddly enjoy the soap opera generated around it..

not what freedom of speech means

 

[C7usk]

not what freedom of speech means

Maybe not... But I think you know what I meant...

 

[Ian_George]

Relax - I was just asking a simple question in the first place.

Wtf is wrong with you guys? No wonder forum members don't want to enter conversations.

I guess there is a reason why most of my posts are in the Wordle thread and I still haven't got to 700 posts in 8 years!

I'll take my leave of this thread henceforth.

Likewise 'Relax and don't be super-sensitive'. My comment wasn't meant as criticism; just pointing out the irony! There are certainly those vehemently pro or anti one side or whatever reason. I'm yet to be convinced of LIV's long term chance to exist and I dislike any new org that tries to change existing setups fundamentally! By all means 'rock the boat', but that can only go so far imo. so some compromise or 'phasing' may be required! OWGR points are an example wrt LIV, but I think it's also deliberately being used by LIV and isn't actually all that much of a problem anyway!