LIV Golf

[Blue in Munich]

They could allow their players to play on both tours..... Because they all absolutely would

What, all the players who left to get a shorter schedule and more family time would sign up to double their workload for very little extra cash in comparison to their guaranteed signing on cash from LIV? I’m not seeing it.

 

[r0wly86]

They literally had that scenario in mind, the LIV calendar is such that it doesn’t tread on the toes of the PGA tour.

There has been nothing from LIV at all, to stipulate players can’t play on an other tour.

That still does not counter that the contracts say the have to play all 14 LIV events, to keep their Tour cards they have to play 15 PGA event, which I think is going up to 16, that's 30 weeks of the year. Unless LIV were expecting their players to be able to play PGA Tour events, with no tour card, and can just pick and choose which events they can play on the PGAT. How would you expect the PGAT to respond, another tour poaches their players and then says it's okay they can still play on your tour but only when they want to

 

[Bdill93]

Why would they do that when they would then see a flood of their best players leaving ?

Who would that benefit ? Certainly wouldn’t be the PGAT

Well for one, they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be playing on multiple tours just like they do now. Rory has been in Europe for a few weeks and not the PGA tour? Whys that any different to Wolff playing LIV one week instead of the forneit championship for example?

I disagree that the PGA tour doesn't benefit.

PGA tour get back Cam Smith, BDC, Koepka, Reed, DJ and plenty of other big names they've lost. A year ago, Bryson was the biggest pull in golf!

 

[Deleted member 1418]

What, all the players who left to get a shorter schedule and more family time would sign up to double their workload for very little extra cash in comparison to their guaranteed signing on cash from LIV? I’m not seeing it.

It's not about the players though Rich - what about the LIV caddies who were so poorly treated on the PGA Tour? Now that they're used to the finer things in life, like travelling on the LIV jet, they'd probably refuse to carry the bags for their players at PGAT events!!
#loadedloopers

 

[r0wly86]

Well for one, they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be playing on multiple tours just like they do now. Rory has been in Europe for a few weeks and not the PGA tour? Whys that any different to Wolff playing LIV one week instead of the forneit championship for example?

I disagree that the PGA tour doesn't benefit.

PGA tour get back Cam Smith, BDC, Koepka, Reed, DJ and plenty of other big names they've lost. A year ago, Bryson was the biggest pull in golf!

The PGA do lose out, they get their players back for a few tournaments? That's it and they should be grateful

 

[Bdill93]

Can it, that would require changing all contracts, unlikely this can be done unilaterally, so will require all parties to agree to the changes (i.e. it is a contractual stipulation in LIV that they play all events) this is no easy business as this would open up renegotiations on pretty much every matter.

Also what do the tours get out of it. LIV have spent billions of dollars attracting the players and getting set up, they want their players to play in every event, they won't want them going onto the PGAT, as far they are concerned the players are now their intellectual property, if LIV do want to do that chances are they would want some of the money back from the players, and would the players want to stay if that was the case.

what do the PGAT get out of the agreement, essentially saying it's okay to leave the tour for a rival, as you still get to play on the PGAT win money and get ranking points that could go to a loyal member.

Frankly the two tours are pulling in opposite directions, by their nature they have to be mutually exclusive

If the PGA tour can work alongside other major tours, why is LIV the exception? They can absolutely work together for a solution. Seems you're just stuck in that mentality.

 

[r0wly86]

If the PGA tour can work alongside other major tours, why is LIV the exception? They can absolutely work together for a solution. Seems you're just stuck in that mentality.

because the other tours work in a completely different way to LIV

 

[Bdill93]

surely LIV would then want their money back, I doubt they would pay players $100m if they are playing on the PGAT as much as LIV

Should they ever manage a merger -

I'm sure LIV could absorb the money lost. Effectively its an investment they made which eventually enabled them a seat at the table with the PGA tour and the players also still play their tournament?

They never would get that seat if they didn't sign all these players.

 

[Bdill93]

because the other tours work in a completely different way to LIV

Yes they're all longer as they play for 4 days.

Other than that, what's the difference between LIV London and the Italian Open - besides qualification as obviously in a merger that would be addressed?

 

[r0wly86]

Should they ever manage a merger -

I'm sure LIV could absorb the money lost. Effectively its an investment they made which eventually enabled them a seat at the table with the PGA tour and the players also still play their tournament?

They never would get that seat if they didn't sign all these players.

That is fanciful thinking

 

[Bdill93]

That is fanciful thinking

A merger in general is fanciful thinking at this stage, but it doesn't mean it isn't feasibly possible.

Sheik Mansour has invested Billions to make Man City relevant and still not won a CL - LIV's initial investment is simply that, if it gets a foot in the door a couple billion is nothing to these people.

A seat at the table of professional golf for the years to come is worth more than a couple of billion.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Surely that is the whole point of them playing in both though, it would see exactly nobody would leave as they would play on both tours. A negotiated schedule with the PGA Tour stipulating the events they want certain golfers at, the PGA Tour get full fields at the events they want, LIV gets its tournaments with top fields, the whole image of golf increases and we move away from the path of mutually assured destruction that we are on at the moment. I am not seeing many downsides there.

So basically you end up with events that clash with LIV events with none of the top players ? What happens with those events ? Start to lose sponsors and events struggle - basically you end up with events only for top players.

And which players will be allowed to go to LIV ?

It’s not like it’s just 3 or 4 events - there are over 14 events on LIV alone , plus the Asian international events they have been asked to play.

Well for one, they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be playing on multiple tours just like they do now. Rory has been in Europe for a few weeks and not the PGA tour? Whys that any different to Wolff playing LIV one week instead of the forneit championship for example?

I disagree that the PGA tour doesn't benefit.

PGA tour get back Cam Smith, BDC, Koepka, Reed, DJ and plenty of other big names they've lost. A year ago, Bryson was the biggest pull in golf!

Can you not see the issues ?

European and PGAT have two different markets

The main people that will benefit will be rich players

LIV contracts mean they have to play LIV events - they can’t pick to play in a PGAT event if a LIV event is happening - so they are restricted to events only when a LIV event isn’t happening.

 

[GB72]

So basically you end up with events that clash with LIV events with none of the top players ? What happens with those events ? Start to lose sponsors and events struggle - basically you end up with events only for top players.

And which players will be allowed to go to LIV ?

It’s not like it’s just 3 or 4 events - there are over 14 events on LIV alone , plus the Asian international events they have been asked to play.

That will be the negotiated schedule I mentioned. Maybe the coexistence of the 2 tours actually raises the profile of golf globally and attracts new sponsors. You will neer find a solution if you keep looking for problems instead of solutions.

 

[Bdill93]

So basically you end up with events that clash with LIV events with none of the top players ? What happens with those events ? Start to lose sponsors and events struggle - basically you end up with events only for top players.

And which players will be allowed to go to LIV ?

It’s not like it’s just 3 or 4 events - there are over 14 events on LIV alone , plus the Asian international events they have been asked to play.



Can you not see the issues ?

European and PGAT have two different markets

The main people that will benefit will be rich players

LIV contracts mean they have to play LIV events - they can’t pick to play in a PGAT event if a LIV event is happening - so they are restricted to events only when a LIV event isn’t happening.

Yes right now they do. But they can easily plan events around the biggest 20 events on the PGAT on LIV. There is no great LIV history yet so it can all be re-written.

LIV can also amend the contract to free up players should they wish to create space for other tour players to come to a LIV event. If they wanted to merge with the PGAT, it wouldn't come without wiggle room. Players Championship weekend for example would obviously never also concurrently hold a LIV event if they merged. But again that's a piece of cake to arrange really.

Also - its not like the PGA tour gets insane fields every week currently? https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/fortinet-championship/field.html - not exactly a load of household names but I've not read that Fortinet aren't sponsoring the event again?

Does just feel like the guys against LIV on page 1 on this thread simply have not changed their minds at all which is fine, but plenty of others have. And significantly, plenty of top top golfers.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

When it comes down to the amount of money being “guaranteed” to the players then it’s hard for the PGAT to stop players leaving.

What can the PGAT actually do ? They aren’t going to counter offer and give players guaranteed money and there is already a lot of money on offer for the players

Your right it's very hard for them to stop it... They are going to continue to be seen to lose players and Liv will continue to be perceived as getting stronger each time a player moves.

Their (PGAT) stance has largely led to this, easy in hindsight of course but had they talked with Liv at the start when they held all the cards they could have held onto all players and the majority of the main season and Liv would have followed after.

Now Liv has got to a position of strength in their product where they feel they dont need to even sit down with them now and it would appear they know more top players are on the way.

Unfortunately for the golf fan it looks like we are in for a fractured professional game for the foreseeable future and that is something that is very sad but it's not right to put all that blame on Liv just because they started a new tour.

Liv knew the PGAT was so strong and the only way to get top players was to offer them more financial return, there was no other way to get quick traction

 

[GB72]

Your right it's very hard for them to stop it... They are going to continue to be seen to lose players and Liv will continue to be perceived as getting stronger each time a player moves.

Their (PGAT) stance has largely led to this, easy in hindsight of course but had they talked with Liv at the start when they held all the cards they could have held onto all players and the majority of the main season and Liv would have followed after.

Now Liv has got to a position of strength in their product where they feel they dont need to even sit down with them now and it would appear they know more top players are on the way.

Unfortunately for the golf fan it looks like we are in for a fractured professional game for the foreseeable future and that is something that is very sad but it's not right to put all that blame on Liv just because they started a new tour.

Liv knew the PGAT was so strong and the only way to get top players was to offer them more financial return, there was no other way to get quick traction

Agree with your last comment. Same with any business. If I am starting up a new company, I know that I would have to offer the best staff well in excess of what the existing and established companies pay for them to take the gamble of moving to my company with an unproven track record. I am somewhat surprsed that this has been seen as a shock or an issue as it is a relatively standard business practice

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Your right it's very hard for them to stop it... They are going to continue to be seen to lose players and Liv will continue to be perceived as getting stronger each time a player moves.

Their (PGAT) stance has largely led to this, easy in hindsight of course but had they talked with Liv at the start when they held all the cards they could have held onto all players and the majority of the main season and Liv would have followed after.

Now Liv has got to a position of strength in their product where they feel they dont need to even sit down with them now and it would appear they know more top players are on the way.

Unfortunately for the golf fan it looks like we are in for a fractured professional game for the foreseeable future and that is something that is very sad but it's not right to put all that blame on Liv just because they started a new tour.

Liv knew the PGAT was so strong and the only way to get top players was to offer them more financial return, there was no other way to get quick traction

The PGAT is going to look after it’s own tour

LIV is a tour that is in direct competition to PGAT events - they aren’t going to help facilitate a rival tour that is based in the US

It’s not beneficial for them

And I don’t think LIV are in that strong of a position for one thing - access to majors , there are guys that are exempt but there will be a number that need the ranking points etc to gain entry

Yep they are stronger financially at the moment and the players that would like that level of finances will go but not many of them - at the moment PGAT have most of the top 50 players and even if a couple more leave they will still be in stronger position

At some point LIV will need look at how they progress -will it be sustainable or will the PIF constantly fund it ?


What happens if they decided to stop funding it directly ?
Still a lot of unknowns that mean many of the top players will stay on the PGAT

Yes right now they do. But they can easily plan events around the biggest 20 events on the PGAT on LIV. There is no great LIV history yet so it can all be re-written.

LIV can also amend the contract to free up players should they wish to create space for other tour players to come to a LIV event. If they wanted to merge with the PGAT, it wouldn't come without wiggle room. Players Championship weekend for example would obviously never also concurrently hold a LIV event if they merged. But again that's a piece of cake to arrange really.

Also - its not like the PGA tour gets insane fields every week currently? https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/fortinet-championship/field.html - not exactly a load of household names but I've not read that Fortinet aren't sponsoring the event again?

Does just feel like the guys against LIV on page 1 on this thread simply have not changed their minds at all which is fine, but plenty of others have. And significantly, plenty of top top golfers.

Do you really think that LIV are going to give these golfers guaranteed money and on a contract and then let them miss LIV events to play in PGAT events ? With 14 events planned then there are going to be many clashes

The players who have gone to LIv on contracts are now under LIV control - they will have to play where LIV demand they play

it’s far from as simple as you suggest

 

[Backsticks]

For sure the PGAT are behaving unreasonably on this. Any other decent business would let a competitor have access to its key attractions.

If Pepsi were struggling in some market because customers preferred Coke, and they went to Coca Cola saying : can we have the Coke formula please, and sell that in Pepsi bottles, Coke would be fine with it, and give them the formula. They just want people to enjoy refreshing drinks.

Or if Samsung went to Apple saying: people love your phone OS, and we could sell more hardware if we could put Apple software on our hardware instead of Android, Apple would say, sure here's the code, our goal is just to grow mobile phone usage and for people to experience great tech.

But the PGAT just doesnt seem to think like that.

 

[GB72]

For sure the PGAT are behaving unreasonably on this. Any other decent business would let a competitor have access to its key attractions.

If Pepsi were struggling in some market because customers preferred Coke, and they went to Coca Cola saying : can we have the Coke formula please, and sell that in Pepsi bottles, Coke would be fine with it, and give them the formula. They just want people to enjoy refreshing drinks.

Or if Samsung went to Apple saying: people love your phone OS, and we could sell more hardware if we could put Apple software on our hardware instead of Android, Apple would say, sure here's the code, our goal is just to grow mobile phone usage and for people to experience great tech.

But the PGAT just doesnt seem to think like that.

Not sure I get the analogy between copyrighted or patented products and a sport. Are you saying that nobody else should be able to play professional golf is not PGA Tour affiliated. To use your analogy, what we need is a situation where Pepsi and Coke both sell in the same market with excellent products that increase the market share for Cola in general. On your other analogy, Windows, Android and any number of companies do very well out of putting their product in other people's hardware as they understand that there is a mutually beneficial goal from ensuring the general spread and proliferation of a product no matter who is selling it. Android event lets companies put skins over their product so it seems to be theirs.

Personally, I would be happy for both sides to fail as I think that they are both pretty rotten to the core but, as things stand, we have to organisations happy to go to mutually assured distruction if it causes the other to fail and plenty of people supporting that on both sides.

 

[Bamberdele2.0]

Would anyone be able to break down all the 7,225 posts of this thread into a couple of short paragraphs that would be a nice easy read for someone starting from page one today?

Asking for a friend