Lies, damn lies and statistics

harpo_72

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Well my club had pro's day yesterday and it was an okay weather day with the wind changing direction, but no rain and some sunshine. The course was set up in it's usual way, with the white tees at the back and the pins on ridges. The greens after their initial soaking at the start of the week had dried up and the level of spin available was minimal and the pitch marks were only small indentations. All of which I expected, I am under no illusion that they will make it as hard as they can, it is a competition. Despite all of this I managed to scramble it round and left a few putts out there but also grabbed a few which were lucky to record a gross 78 and 37 points. Both my playing partners who were off 5 and 7 respectively shot 34 pts each (gross scores unknown they blobbed a hole or 2). I came in thinking phew I had done enough to see a 0.2 cut and no harm done. However on arrival at the clubhouse and on handing in the score card I was told that I was in position 2 out 175 people... a surprise especially with 37pts.
Anyway to cut a long story short the general consensus in the club was that the greens were too fast the pin positions were too difficult and it was too hard, especially for the weekender. All of which I agree with and having been lumbered with a speech because the main prize winner ( 38pts) could not return to collect his prize left me just thanking the pro's for organising the competition but neglecting to thank the green staff, which was the diplomatic choice. The lady winner thanked the green staff and the clubhouse gave a murmur of discontent (nothing too impolite .. my previous clubs would have commented about his parentage or out of hour habits).
During my round we had been discussing the CSS and I had offered up my opinion that when you read their method of calculation they lack clarity and would never win a plain english award. The opposing side was that it was there to stop players going up and allowing them to buffer but when they played well to get cut. But having seen the general scores yesterday the average being 30 pts one has to question how the buffer can be set at 34 pts and those guys who played the average round picked up a 0.1 increase (i know not very much) and all those who played slightly better than average received nothing for their efforts. It seems the CSS is too fixed and we should be looking at the difficulty of the course, if those that play it average a high score then the course was hard, so the cuts and the additions should reflect that. All I see is minimal cuts and lots of additions.
I am not saying my round was brilliant, far from it, what I am saying is that those people who shot 30 -34pts played well under the conditions and the CSS is not respecting that and forcing us into this position of falsely inflated handicaps. I have to say I have little sympathy for those that come on here arguing that they shot a good round and got cut too much ... so please don't offer that as excuse.
 

DCB

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So, what was the CSS for the competition ?

Anyway to cut a long story short the general consensus in the club was that the greens were too fast the pin positions were too difficult and it was too hard, especially for the weekender.
:confused: surely you play to the conditions
 

Val

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If the course is tricked up and the greens fast and difficult then it reflects in the CSS, I don't see the problem other than sometimes it takes the enjoyment out of your round.
 

jp5

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CSS is calculated from competition scores so it does reflect how difficult players found the course.

Besides, the course is the same for everyone and I guess it is a one off for pro's day. Nice to have the option to play your course when it is set up tough, and poor form for not acknowledging the work the greenkeepers have put in.
 

harpo_72

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To summarise the CSS failed to reflect the course difficulty IMO. Secondly the greens had not been watered, the iron had been applied but the flags not removed, causing some raising, the bunkers were devoid of sand in the middle. So no it wasn't poor form, you don't thank people for the sake of it, it has to be justified, the membership were unhappy and that speaks volumes. I just diplomatically did not voice these views, nor did I give praise where it was not due in my opinion. Harsh maybe but I am a fair man and if you want the truth I will tell you it ... I don't have time to massage your ego or mine. I walked off the course on Thursday knowing my game weakness and what to expect of the greens, I spent time putting on a knackered carpet to get that feel , it paid off.
 

jp5

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You didn't mention that the course was in poor condition, only that it was 'too difficult'.

All I said to that was that it is the same for everyone - 'fast greens' and 'pin positions too difficult' are still fair on all, whereas a poor condition course isn't.
 

Fish

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I thought the scores recorded defined the CSS of the day automatically so how can it be "too fixed"?

[shouts] Duncan.......
 

harpo_72

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You didn't mention that the course was in poor condition, only that it was 'too difficult'.

All I said to that was that it is the same for everyone - 'fast greens' and 'pin positions too difficult' are still fair on all, whereas a poor condition course isn't.
Not all the members know the idiosyncrasies and keep their complaints simple. And yes it's the same for all, I don't dispute that. What I am saying is the CSS is not reflecting the scoring.
 

Hobbit

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Sounds fine to me. Your playing partners shot 34pts with blobs... 37pts got 2nd...

Greens too fast is subjective and pins in tough spots, again subjective.

And then you've gone from too tough to complaining about quality... sounds like a whine to me.
 

Foxholer

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Well my club had pro's day yesterday...The course was set up in it's usual way, with the white tees at the back and the pins on ridges... I am under no illusion that they will make it as hard as they can, it is a competition. Despite all of this I managed to scramble it round and left a few putts out there but also grabbed a few which were lucky to record a gross 78 and 37 points. Both my playing partners who were off 5 and 7 respectively shot 34 pts each...

Anyway to cut a long story short

It seems the CSS is too fixed and we should be looking at the difficulty of the course, if those that play it average a high score then the course was hard, so the cuts and the additions should reflect that. All I see is minimal cuts and lots of additions.
...forcing us into this position of falsely inflated handicaps. I have to say I have little sympathy for those that come on here arguing that they shot a good round and got cut too much ... so please don't offer that as excuse.

I'm pleased you kept it 'short'.

What exactly are you trying to say?

Some questions

How often do you actually play to, or below, you handicap? What's your average score.

What was CSS? What's SSS? And what's Par, seeing it as a Stableford comp.

Can't really see what you are complaining about. Seems a 'tough but fair' comp as expected imo. Is it the Green Staff that set the pins on Pro's day? Or do they simply set them as directed by the Pros.
 

harpo_72

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Par 71, SSS 72 - dunno how many times I play under, I don't get to play other places too often. So what can I say about my handicap, it is what is. Is this a whine, hardly I came 2nd and I am looking at a cut of 0.6 which is good, that is my prime objective. What I am saying is I disagree with the statistical manipulation of the CSS and I don't think it reflects the course conditions. If we take the argument further it suggests in my mind that we get inflated handicaps. Simply put the buffer should be within 2 strokes of the mean competition score and the cuts should be applied accordingly.
The par is actually irrelevant look at the history of the game we did not have a fixed par, it was what it was on therapy ... The current CSS fails because it loses itself in buffer zones etc..
 

Doon frae Troon

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harpo....I stopped reading when I saw the pitch mark quote.

You seldom get pitch mark indentations on good greens but you nearly always get pitch mark indentations on poor greens.
 

harpo_72

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Sorry not therapy , should be the day.
But another point is the green keeper doesn't play and yet sets the pins - which is strange , because usually they play and they are passionate about their game and course.
 

harpo_72

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harpo....I stopped reading when I saw the pitch mark quote.

You seldom get pitch mark indentations on good greens but you nearly always get pitch mark indentations on poor greens.
so what are the pro's repairing? Or are the greens they play on really well damped?
 

Doon frae Troon

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so what are the pro's repairing? Or are the greens they play on really well damped?

If you observe the pros they generally struggle to find their pitch mark which is then not visible on the TV screens.
Spin does not come from the 'pitchmark' but on the second bounce of a well struck shot off a firm closely cut fairway.
If a green is so poor that it leaves a large pitchmark then the ball has usually lost all of it's spin on impact and will run on.
Unless of course you are playing into a waterlogged bank.
 
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