Let's tax pensioners

[Deleted member 18588]

Which I fear is where we are today - a place we as a country were not some 50yrs ago.

Romanticised rubbish!

Society is no more or less selfish now than it was 50 years ago.

To some extent the older generation have always regarded the young as reckless and the young have resented the old.

The preconceived notions have existed since time began.

BTW I can remember 1968, not certain that some others can.

 

[Blue in Munich]

There's also only one generation in the last 150 years who are poorer than their parents at the same age. There is only 1 generation that is still poorer in 2018 than they were in 2007 (hint: it isnt the one who caused the biggest financial crash in 75 years).

In the 8 years following the crash (you know, when youth unemployment rose, zero hour contracts became prevalent, company pensions were slashed etc etc) the property market actually rose by 50%, compared to GDP which rose by 20%, meaning the generation of homeowners wealth substantially increased thanks to government macroeconomic monetary policy whilst those without property wealth decreased, causing the mess the market finds itself in today.

Saving 5% of disposable income, it takes 20 years for a low/middle income family to save for a deposit in 2018. It took 3 years for the same group to save in 1998.

So no, there isnt a generation that has 'lived through both sides of the argument' whatsoever.

Hint; I think you'll find that was the banking industry, not the old people.

And yes, I'm absolutely rolling in it because of the value of my house. all I need to do to realise that wealth is make myself homeless.........

 

[Blue in Munich]

And we may face a dystopian future where a relatively (or actually) impoverished younger sector of the population - with poor health care; very uncertain employment; poor and expensive housing, and a very negative perception of what a meaningless future holds - look with resentment, jealousy and avarice at a relatively well off older sector. And the impoverished want some of what the well off have - and if government does not do anything about giving them access to some of the 'wealth' that they see that others have - then there is a risk that they will simply take actions to take it.

Unlikely?

I think so; doubt I'll be popping home anytime soon to find that someone's stolen the house.

 

[Hobbit]

Saving 5% of disposable income, it takes 20 years for a low/middle income family to save for a deposit in 2018. It took 3 years for the same group to save in 1998.

So no, there isnt a generation that has 'lived through both sides of the argument' whatsoever.

5% of my net salary in 1980 was £225. Deposit was 10% = £1500, for a 2 bed terraced. And deep joy, interest rates at the time were 12%, rising to 15% by 1982.

3 years?

 

[londonlewis]

Managed to read the first 6 pages of this thread. Some really interesting views.

I'm 35. Own my own house, have no debt except my mortgage, have never been on benefits and have a degree.

For younger generations coming through, I feel sorry for quite a few of them. Not the ones that will be terrible with money all their life, then complain that things aren't fair. But the ones that are motivated, will be employed but potentially struggle.

The cost of a higher education today is insane. Too many people are being pushed towards completing a degree and leave university with £40-50k debt and a lack of ability to get a decent job. In this regard, I definitely feel like the 20-somethings in this country are disadvantaged in comparison to my generation (£1200 tuition fees) and generations before me, who could either go to Uni for free or expect to get a decent job without a degree.

House prices today are also insane. I (my wife and I) had to make sacrifices to save money for our first deposit and by doing so we were able to buy our first home when I was 28 (the cradle snatcher was 34). Yet my dad bought his first house when he was 21, whilst my mum didn't work. My father started working at 16 and bought his house after 5 years working. My wife and I had to work a combined 19 years to buy our first house.
The issue is getting worse. Considering they expect 40% of my generation to rent all their lives, what hope is there for future generations?
My grandparents' generation were able to afford to buy a house on one worker's salary, have a full-time housewife who never worked as well as 5 children. Sure money was tight after all of this but it was possible, for the masses. This generation can't do this and don't do this.

The working environment in some regards is so much better now than it was for previous generations. But arguably worse when you consider pensions and not being able to be a one-company-employee. Gone are the days where you can start on the bottom rung of the ladder and one day become the CEO of the same company.

All-in-all, I'm worried for my kids. They are 4 and 1. I'm worried they are going to be living under a pile of debt all their lives and not being able to retire before they die. That's the direction this is going. It's scary.

Entitlement:
One of the things my dad says often about people in their 20s.
The message is basically 'my generation did it, by themselves, by their bootstraps, we worked hard, we were given nothing' and this generation 'expects to be given everything, are lazy, want to get to the top without working hard' etc...
For me, I just worry that we aren't providing next generations with the same opportunities and it isn't a level playing field.

Like I say, I'm worried for my kids.

 

[londonlewis]

5% of my net salary in 1980 was £225. Deposit was 10% = £1500, for a 2 bed terraced. And deep joy, interest rates at the time were 12%, rising to 15% by 1982.

3 years?

But at 15% you were still able to survive each month, I imagine.

I don't think that's possible today.
Average house price today is £212k. With a 10% deposit your mortgage would be £190k. At 15% interest rates, your mortgage repayment would be £2,433 per month.
Once you pay your coincil tax, water, electicity and gas you wouldn't have anything left for food.

It's really not the same. I don't want to give the impression that I think the older generations had it easy but I am not sure if the right consideration is being made for how hard younger generations have it.

 

[pendodave]

I'm middle aged (born 1964) with kids just ending education or early in their working careers.

London Lewis is spot on for me.

I am surprised that so many people who I respect on this board are so unaware of how lucky they were to be born when they were. I was born poor, now I'm not. But I'm not so vainglorious as to think that a significant part of that journey wasn't the pure good fortune to be born in the right place at the right time.

As for a solution, throwing money at them doesn't seem the most appropriate. Fixing the nonsense that is the current housing situation, rolling back some of the 'innovative' employment practices and restructuring tax so that it targets capital (which a small number of people have rather a lot of) rather than labour (which for a great many people is all they have) would seem good starting points.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I never mentioned anyones jobs.
If you read my post again it was about how the younger generation spend their money.

I dont need to re-read your post, those services you complain about are services that some have decided to do for a living. They are services that provide employment and income to those willing to apply themselves in a jobs markets shorn of the industry of years back. Surely you have heard Government saying we are a services lead country now?

Its not just younger people that use some of these newer services. Just because the shampoo and set or blue rinse isn't common anymore doesnt mean older ladies arent spending their money on the same things.

Would you rather they all be claiming benefits instead?

 

[londonlewis]

London Lewis is spot on for me.

I'm going to get this framed and hang it up at home for the wife to see.

Cheers Dave,
Lewis

 

[PJ87]

The argument for me still comes down to house prices.. my house is worth £450k to get 10% deposit on that I would need an entire years net wages

That’s not just sacrifice that’s not even paying rent or any out going for a year

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Romanticised rubbish!

Society is no more or less selfish now than it was 50 years ago.

To some extent the older generation have always regarded the young as reckless and the young have resented the old.

The preconceived notions have existed since time began.

BTW I can remember 1968, not certain that some others can.

Not in my opinion. I think that there is a much greater degree of entitlement; of 'self', and of demanding what is felt as being 'due' and 'deserved' than in the past - and that through the medium of social media, expressions by one or some of such expressions give credence to others expressing the same.

Just ask any nurse, midwife or doctor of 25+ yrs experience.

 

[IanM]

Not in my opinion. I think that there is a much greater degree of entitlement; of 'self', and of demanding what is felt as being 'due' and 'deserved' than in the past -

I agree... and the wallies who produced the original report in this thread are adding to it. Fee cash by taxing someone else. We have people for who welfare is a life choice not a safety net.

 

[TheDiablo]

5% of my net salary in 1980 was £225. Deposit was 10% = £1500, for a 2 bed terraced. And deep joy, interest rates at the time were 12%, rising to 15% by 1982.

3 years?

I was going on studies conducted using ONS data, comparing 1998 with 2018. I'm unsure of the relevance of an individuals salary 18 years prior.

 

[TheDiablo]

Hint; I think you'll find that was the banking industry, not the old people.

And yes, I'm absolutely rolling in it because of the value of my house. all I need to do to realise that wealth is make myself homeless.........

The financial service industry and political class run by the baby boomer generation. Not to mention inidividuals reckless attitude to finance in that period - none of these decisions were made by the younger generation yet they are the ones facing the consequences. At least with Brexit we screwed ourselves by not voting enough!

And you're literally complaining about having wealth in the 2nd paragraph.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I agree... and the wallies who produced the original report in this thread are adding to it. Fee cash by taxing someone else. We have people for who welfare is a life choice not a safety net.

As a previous post suggested - I suspect the report was aimed at stoking discussion and debate on the inter-generational divide. Though you have introduced 'welfare as a life choice' into this when the suggestions made seem very much not 'welfare' in the sense that you state - indeed the £10k seems more like a grant - to be provided on the applicant making a good 'business case'. It doesn't sound to me like a 'give-away' to all and sundry including those for whom benefits are the sole source of 'income'.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I was going on studies conducted using ONS data, comparing 1998 with 2018. I'm unsure of the relevance of an individuals salary 18 years prior.

A first time buyer in 1998 would likely be born in the early '70s so would not be a member of the "baby boomer" generation that you appear to hold responsible for all of society's ills.

Therefore, Hobbit's stats, rather than your own, would seem far more relevant to the discussion.

 

[Hobbit]

I was going on studies conducted using ONS data, comparing 1998 with 2018. I'm unsure of the relevance of an individuals salary 18 years prior.

I'm willing to accept your data but you seem unwilling to accept that 18 years earlier life wasn't so sweet.

That aside, I have no beef with anyone that is willing to graft to get where they want to be, irrespective of whatever generation they're from. Its those that moan about not being able to x,y,z without even trying and then expect the state to do it for them. In this case, the state to take from one generation and give to another - sorry but I grafted 60-70 hour weeks, including getting evening work, I'm not happy giving to those who won't graft as I did.

Martin Lewis was on Question Time this week, in which this issue was also debated. He said pretty much as several on here have said, "its insulting to the current generation to question how hard it is to afford a house today." He also said, "it is possible to save for a deposit over a few years but the young need to start saving as soon as possible."

 

[Hobbit]

Entitlement:
One of the things my dad says often about people in their 20s.
The message is basically 'my generation did it, by themselves, by their bootstraps, we worked hard, we were given nothing' and this generation 'expects to be given everything, are lazy, want to get to the top without working hard' etc...
For me, I just worry that we aren't providing next generations with the same opportunities and it isn't a level playing field.

Like I say, I'm worried for my kids.

View attachment 24936

There definitely isn't the opportunities for the young of today, although I'm immensely proud to see what my children have achieved through hard graft.

Where are the apprenticeships today? I remember apprentices at British Steel deciding to jump ship to ICI apprenticeships because they paid more. There isn't 40+ apprenticeships at British Steel and ICI on Teesside each now. I doubt there's even 10 at Tata Steel. And then there were apprenticeships in shipbuilding and countless other industries locally.

On the one hand, university places for all but on the other, what jobs at the end of it?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I do wonder how long the mass unenployment and job losses of the 80's affects familiers and offspring, and how that fosters those intergenerational ill-feeling the initial report was talking about.

 

[Hobbit]

But at 15% you were still able to survive each month, I imagine.

I don't think that's possible today.
Average house price today is £212k. With a 10% deposit your mortgage would be £190k. At 15% interest rates, your mortgage repayment would be £2,433 per month.
Once you pay your coincil tax, water, electicity and gas you wouldn't have anything left for food.

It's really not the same. I don't want to give the impression that I think the older generations had it easy but I am not sure if the right consideration is being made for how hard younger generations have it.

Oh it definitely wasn't easy. It was a struggle to see repayments going up and, although salaries followed eventually, thank god we hadn't started a family then. We did our calculations based on one wage, and didn't borrow as much as we could. Some borrowed to the hilt, and house repossessions were high.