Let's tax pensioners

[PJ87]

Article online today shows how messed up the whole system has become

Couple blocked from getting a mortgage on a home that will see their monthly payments drop by £500 per month so their lender would rather see them stay where they are paying £500 a month more

So obviously can afford the payments

Affordability check applied wrong

I’m lucky that my payrise wipes out the difference of the wife going part time so no reason for our lender to not let me switch deals in a few months

 

[Hacker Khan]

This current sport of berating old people is disgusting. Many of the people doing it suggest they are socialists as well, what kind of socialism is it that blames the ills of the young on their parents and grandparents. These older people have just lived a life and in most cases worked damn hard, no one has given them anything and in the vast majority of cases they have worked for the best part of 50 years and grown up in what people now would call abject poverty. Don't dare blame them for the state of the housing market, I would challenge anyone who was selling a house/car/ any possession not to look for a fair market price.

I expect someone to now reply with a Monty Python 'If they could see us now' but this divisive claptrap I keep reading makes me want to vomit.

You do realise that you are just reinforcing stereotypes of old people by claiming that it is the socialists that are berating old people. And you also do realise that there was never a snowball's chance in hell of this becoming policy. It is just a headline grabbing extreme suggestion by a think tank or organisation to grab some publicity and get people talking about the subject. Which it has as seen by some very good posts on this thread. It's just another in a long line of utterly unworkable far out suggestions such as burn the poor, chop off the hands of anyone that went to Eton, make women prove they have been raped to get child benefit (actually scratch that, that did become policy).

Oh and my parents are old and they didn't live in abject poverty, have a very comfortable state pension, holiday several times a year and have been able to afford a very nice house that is far too big for them through the increase in value of property. But I will grant you they drive a Peugeot very slowly, so not everything's worked out well. I don't resent them for that, want to chuck them out of their house or wish to tax them 10 grand, but them's the facts.

 

[jusme]

Some excellent and well balanced posts in this thread, however largely many of the posts I read reflect the types of problems society faces. Blame culture and selfishness. I would prefer to see people straight up admit that they care little about any one else future and as long as they are OK then that's their priority. We all to one extent or another take advantage of whatever government policy is put before us in our lives and I for one will never blame someone for doing so. Some of us are more fortunate as a result.

We supposedly live in society where to some extent those more fortunate contribute more to support those less fortunate. I wish this sat better with a larger percentage of our population and in general the global population.

Older people are not to blame for the challenges that younger people face today. Its human nature to do as well for yourself as you can and taking advantage of policy over your lifetime is only doing that. That being said I find it frustrating when I see the same generation denying they were not fortunate. House prices were affordable, jobs plentiful, wages decent in comparison to cost of living, education free, pensions decent, etc. Of course they worked hard, where often frugile, sensible and contributed to their comfortable position. Of course there are many retired that were not as fortunate, but that does not in itself dispel the facts of a generation. Again they are not to blame, they simply applied themselves and worked hard to build lives for themselves within the context they where given.

Not all young people are wasters and lazy gits. You take the average person who is trying to work hard and apply themselves as the older generations done. The contexts they find themselves in are much tougher in comparison. These are simply facts that sadly some people want to deny. It is where we are now and younger people cannot look back and simply have to apply themselves as best they can to try and make their life as meaningful as they can. Its by no means bleak and in the wider context of global fortune they are wealthy and well beyond belief.

Back to an earlier point - I would like to see a greater percentage of more fortunate people, be that through age, luck or wealth contribute a little more to help the next generation. Not a hand out society - a hand up for those that can afford it, however I know I will not see that happen willingly as largely we are a selfish animal and a selfish society

 

[Hacker Khan]

Some excellent and well balanced posts in this thread, however largely many of the posts I read reflect the types of problems society faces. Blame culture and selfishness. I would prefer to see people straight up admit that they care little about any one else future and as long as they are OK then that's their priority. We all to one extent or another take advantage of whatever government policy is put before us in our lives and I for one will never blame someone for doing so. Some of us are more fortunate as a result.

We supposedly live in society where to some extent those more fortunate contribute more to support those less fortunate. I wish this sat better with a larger percentage of our population and in general the global population.

Older people are not to blame for the challenges that younger people face today. Its human nature to do as well for yourself as you can and taking advantage of policy over your lifetime is only doing that. That being said I find it frustrating when I see the same generation denying they were not fortunate. House prices were affordable, jobs plentiful, wages decent in comparison to cost of living, education free, pensions decent, etc. Of course they worked hard, where often frugile, sensible and contributed to their comfortable position. Of course there are many retired that were not as fortunate, but that does not in itself dispel the facts of a generation. Again they are not to blame, they simply applied themselves and worked hard to build lives for themselves within the context they where given.

Not all young people are wasters and lazy gits. You take the average person who is trying to work hard and apply themselves as the older generations done. The contexts they find themselves in are much tougher in comparison. These are simply facts that sadly some people want to deny. It is where we are now and younger people cannot look back and simply have to apply themselves as best they can to try and make their life as meaningful as they can. Its by no means bleak and in the wider context of global fortune they are wealthy and well beyond belief.

Back to an earlier point - I would like to see a greater percentage of more fortunate people, be that through age, luck or wealth contribute a little more to help the next generation. Not a hand out society - a hand up for those that can afford it, however I know I will not see that happen willingly as largely we are a selfish animal and a selfish society

Very fair post.

 

[Old Skier]

Retire everyone off at 55 to increase the job market.

On a more practical note, elderly people around here would love to down size but unfortunately you'll pay more here for a 2 bed bungalow than you do for a 3 bed house.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Not all is what it seems.

1980...……. my neighbours daughter started her first paid job at the age of 26. Two degree courses and an MA plus a gap year for holidays.

2018...… my granddaughter started her first business aged 16 having sourced her property and built her business plan whilst still at school..lots of advice but no real financial support from her parents.
She sub lets two chairs in her rented beauty salon to a nails person and hair stylist and earns pretty decent money as a make up artist.
She was working at 6am on the day of the Scottish Grand national with a long list of bookings for ladies getting poshed up before going to the races.
I would like to think that there are many more teenagers with her drive and determination, not all are lazy feckless souls.

 

[bobmac]

I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn?

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument.

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn?

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument.

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.

It’s easy to berate the young for the jobs they do. I have a daughter who has gone self employed (being a fully qualified hairstylist and makeup artist),after being “let go” because she has Crohn’s disease which nearly killed her, she refuses to go on benefits.
Of course that and nail bars is a newish thing, but then the older factory or industry work isn’t there anymore, so I applaud her and any young person who go out and find work and don’t want to be a drain on society.
The fact the jobs market has changed so much isn’t their fault, it’s a product of choices and descisions made years ago by different Governments

 

[Hacker Khan]

I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn?

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument.

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.

Ignoring yet another bout of stereotyping of young people based on some top level research on Facebook, the whole point is that a lot has changed in society with regards to the economy, the types of jobs, housing etc etc over the years. So no generation has 'lived through both sides', each has faced some similar but also some very different structural challenges. And affordability of housing is a current one the younger generation are facing.

 

[Hacker Khan]

It’s easy to berate the young for the jobs they do. I have a daughter who has gone self employed (being a fully qualified hairstylist and makeup artist),after being “let go” because she has Crohn’s disease which nearly killed her, she refuses to go on benefits.
Of course that and nail bars is a newish thing, but then the older factory or industry work isn’t there anymore, so I applaud her and any young person who go out and find work and don’t want to be a drain on society.
The fact the jobs market has changed so much isn’t their fault, it’s a product of choices and descisions made years ago by different Governments

Very good point and well done to her. I'm sure a lot of them would love to go into a 'job for life' in manufacturing with a nice pension at the end, but the reality is that they do not exist any more. And the services they are providing is what society wants.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And we may face a dystopian future where a relatively (or actually) impoverished younger sector of the population - with poor health care; very uncertain employment; poor and expensive housing, and a very negative perception of what a meaningless future holds - look with resentment, jealousy and avarice at a relatively well off older sector. And the impoverished want some of what the well off have - and if government does not do anything about giving them access to some of the 'wealth' that they see that others have - then there is a risk that they will simply take actions to take it.

Unlikely?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Some excellent and well balanced posts in this thread, however largely many of the posts I read reflect the types of problems society faces. Blame culture and selfishness. I would prefer to see people straight up admit that they care little about any one else future and as long as they are OK then that's their priority. We all to one extent or another take advantage of whatever government policy is put before us in our lives and I for one will never blame someone for doing so. Some of us are more fortunate as a result.

We supposedly live in society where to some extent those more fortunate contribute more to support those less fortunate. I wish this sat better with a larger percentage of our population and in general the global population.

Older people are not to blame for the challenges that younger people face today. Its human nature to do as well for yourself as you can and taking advantage of policy over your lifetime is only doing that. That being said I find it frustrating when I see the same generation denying they were not fortunate. House prices were affordable, jobs plentiful, wages decent in comparison to cost of living, education free, pensions decent, etc. Of course they worked hard, where often frugile, sensible and contributed to their comfortable position. Of course there are many retired that were not as fortunate, but that does not in itself dispel the facts of a generation. Again they are not to blame, they simply applied themselves and worked hard to build lives for themselves within the context they where given.

Not all young people are wasters and lazy gits. You take the average person who is trying to work hard and apply themselves as the older generations done. The contexts they find themselves in are much tougher in comparison. These are simply facts that sadly some people want to deny. It is where we are now and younger people cannot look back and simply have to apply themselves as best they can to try and make their life as meaningful as they can. Its by no means bleak and in the wider context of global fortune they are wealthy and well beyond belief.

Back to an earlier point - I would like to see a greater percentage of more fortunate people, be that through age, luck or wealth contribute a little more to help the next generation. Not a hand out society - a hand up for those that can afford it, however I know I will not see that happen willingly as largely we are a selfish animal and a selfish society

Which I fear is where we are today - a place we as a country were not some 50yrs ago.

 

[IanM]

Sounds like what has been happening for centuries. Some folk are poor, some are rich. My grandfather said the only thing he feared was poverty.

When you look are how Government spends our (tax) money, much of it is shocking

 

[Hacker Khan]

And we may face a dystopian future where a relatively (or actually) impoverished younger sector of the population - with poor health care; very uncertain employment; poor and expensive housing, and a very negative perception of what a meaningless future holds - look with resentment, jealousy and avarice at a relatively well off older sector. And the impoverished want some of what the well off have - and if government does not do anything about giving them access to some of the 'wealth' that they see that others have - then there is a risk that they will simply take actions to take it.

Unlikely?

I think there will be some resentment which you can see a bit in increasing generational divides on a lot of issues. But eventually the old people will die and take a lot of their attitudes, thinking and structures with them. And the generations replacing them will just adapt to their current circumstances and find solutions based on a new way of living, working, mobility and socialising, probably using technology a lot.

I'm sure they will be fine. As long as we do not screw up the environment too much or start WW3 before they get the chance.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think there will be some resentment which you can see a bit in increasing generational divides on a lot of issues. But eventually the old people will die and take a lot of their attitudes, thinking and structures with them. And the generations replacing them will just adapt to their current circumstances and find solutions based on a new way of living, working, mobility and socialising, probably using technology a lot.

I'm sure they will be fine. As long as we do not screw up the environment too much or start WW3 before they get the chance.

I hope that you are right - but current attitudes of quite a lot of us relative 'oldies' do little to mitigate the risk or ameliorate the issue.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Anyway, it those of us stuck in the middle who are the real victims here. We had neither jobs for life with nice pensions and easily affordable housing the elderly had, or instant access to any music or film you want that the kids enjoy. #preyforthemiddleaged

 

[bobmac]

It’s easy to berate the young for the jobs they do.

I never mentioned anyones jobs.
If you read my post again it was about how the younger generation spend their money.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Anyway, it those of us stuck in the middle who are the real victims here. We had neither jobs for life with nice pensions and easily affordable housing the elderly had, or instant access to any music or film you want that the kids enjoy. #preyforthemiddleaged

as opposed to preying on the middle aged

 

[bobmac]

Ignoring yet another bout of stereotyping of young people based on some top level research on Facebook,

Nevertheless, they are facts.

 

[TheDiablo]

I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn?

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument.

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.

There's also only one generation in the last 150 years who are poorer than their parents at the same age. There is only 1 generation that is still poorer in 2018 than they were in 2007 (hint: it isnt the one who caused the biggest financial crash in 75 years).

In the 8 years following the crash (you know, when youth unemployment rose, zero hour contracts became prevalent, company pensions were slashed etc etc) the property market actually rose by 50%, compared to GDP which rose by 20%, meaning the generation of homeowners wealth substantially increased thanks to government macroeconomic monetary policy whilst those without property wealth decreased, causing the mess the market finds itself in today.

Saving 5% of disposable income, it takes 20 years for a low/middle income family to save for a deposit in 2018. It took 3 years for the same group to save in 1998.

So no, there isnt a generation that has 'lived through both sides of the argument' whatsoever.