Junior entering an Adult Comp - which tees?

[rulefan]

my only question is what tees his handicap was based on as I assume it was from junior comps who don't play from the back tees?

Why does that make any difference? The system is designed for handicaps to be maintained over any or all courses. That is what the SSS is for. Handicaps are not based on a single set of tees.

Are you suggesting that two players from different clubs with handicaps of 10 (say), shouldn't play in the same competition as each other. Or a member of your course who normally only plays off the yellows/whites shouldn't enter a white/yellow tee competition?

It may be of interest to know that the home course of Matt Fitzpatrick is only 6350 yards whilst another top rated Yorkshire course is 7000 yards. Was his +4 handicap not transferable?

 

[DCB]

Slightly off topic, but, Re Junior Tees, we tried using a Junior Tee for a while so that the younger, less able players could play round without too much difficulty. We soon found that once they got going in the game the Juniors wanted to play off the Medal Tee in all their competitions. Having been at various other local clubs during my time as junior convener, most of the other clubs had the same situation. The Juniors wanted to test themselves against the full course so there was really no issue with their handicap. The secret is giving them enough comps to make their handicap a true reflection of their ability. Complimentary cards definitely helped with this. We would run two comps a week over the summer hols and along with numerous junior opens by the end of the summer most of the Juniors had the most accurate handicaps in the club.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why does that make any difference? The system is designed for handicaps to be maintained over any or all courses. That is what the SSS is for. Handicaps are not based on a single set of tees.

Are you suggesting that two players from different clubs with handicaps of 10 (say), shouldn't play in the same competition as each other. Or a member of your course who normally only plays off the yellows/whites shouldn't enter a white/yellow tee competition?

It may be of interest to know that the home course of Matt Fitzpatrick is only 6350 yards whilst another top rated Yorkshire course is 7000 yards. Was his +4 handicap not transferable?

I don't think I was suggesting anything you can draw your own conclusions without my help.

my point is if his 28 hcap is off forward tees the norm for a 10yr old there may be some holes off the white tees he can't make the fairway/ carry a pond / ditch etc.
is that wrong off me if so my apologies for upsetting you.

At my club some of the men can't carry it to the fairway never mind a 10 yr old.
so answer me a question
He is faced in a medal with a 180 yard carry over water he can't carry , when he has run out of balls after dropping behind the hazard what then.

Hopefully his dad won't put him in this position but having seen some things in junior golf / football / tennis and most other sports I have seen many that would.

 

[Colin L]

A player whether 10 or 80 who can't carry the water hazard isn't going to enter a medal if he has any sense. He might enter a stableford off the white tees, however.

A carry of 180 yards must preclude quite a number of your members from playing in a medal, I'd have thought.

 

[Old Skier]

Our junior who wishes to get a full CONGO handicap put in cards from yellow or white tees. When they want to move on to men's comps we encourage them to enter a few 9 holers of the men's tees.

 

[clubchamp98]

A player whether 10 or 80 who can't carry the water hazard isn't going to enter a medal if he has any sense. He might enter a stableford off the white tees, however.

A carry of 180 yards must preclude quite a number of your members from playing in a medal, I'd have thought.

yes this is my point!

But my original question has not been answered!
if his hcap is off forward tees ( juniors) is he really a 28 hcap off the back tees.?
Most members put in three cards for their hcap.

maybe juniors should put in three cards off the comp tees to asses wether they can play to 28 hcap .
He maybe a 50 hcap but as 28 is max this applies to everyone.

You are right most of our older men don't play in the comps because they can't handle the length off the back tees.

We don't have a 180 yard carry over water it was just a question.
But some courses I have played do have theses carries off the tees.

Never underestimate what some parents will put their kids through!,,,

 

[Old Skier]

Not many clubs in our area have juniors tees that have been correctly measured or assesed so the have to put in 3 cards from the appropriate tees.

 

[rulefan]

yes this is my point!

But my original question has not been answered!
if his hcap is off forward tees ( juniors) is he really a 28 hcap off the back tees.?

Most members put in three cards for their hcap.

A handicap is a handicap whatever tees were used to determine it (provided they have been rated for the appropriate gender).
As I said, the SSS takes care of the relative difficulty.

Presumably the juniors do also but I hope all members do as a minimum.

 

[rulefan]

my point is if his 28 hcap is off forward tees the norm for a 10yr old there may be some holes off the white tees he can't make the fairway/ carry a pond / ditch etc.
At my club some of the men can't carry it to the fairway never mind a 10 yr old.

The course rating (SSS in old money) should take care of that by recognising that a 'lay-up' or bail out may be required.
The rating system does not expect bogey players to be able to carry 180 yards.
So it's nothing to do with age. It's about ability.

so answer me a question
He is faced in a medal with a 180 yard carry over water he can't carry , when he has run out of balls after dropping behind the hazard what then.

The same as any player who can't negotiate a problem. Remember the Hamlet advert. If you don't get out of the bunker first time, you are there until you do.

My county junior championship had 14 year olds playing with Cat 1 handicaps and hitting nearly 300 yards.

 

[clubchamp98]

The course rating (SSS in old money) should take care of that by recognising that a 'lay-up' or bail out may be required.
The rating system does not expect bogey players to be able to carry 180 yards.
So it's nothing to do with age. It's about ability.


The same as any player who can't negotiate a problem. Remember the Hamlet advert. If you don't get out of the bunker first time, you are there until you do.

My county junior championship had 14 year olds playing with Cat 1 handicaps and hitting nearly 300 yards.

Not convinced ,,getting out of a bunker might take 10 shots but you don't lose all your balls.

Over water you run out of balls , in a comp you can't borrow any so you are marking a card or on your way back to the clubhouse.

I am as I said in my first post not against juniors playing in comps but they should put in three cards off the men's tees just like the other members.

Lets be honest some " grown up members " can't play to 28 hcap and I know some who have moved to easier courses.

As for cat1 juniors it's nice to see the stars of the future hit is 300+ but not all young people can do this but play in comps because their dad thinks they can.

 

[duncan mackie]

Not convinced ,,getting out of a bunker might take 10 shots but you don't lose all your balls.

Over water you run out of balls , in a comp you can't borrow any so you are marking a card or on your way back to the clubhouse.

I am as I said in my first post not against juniors playing in comps but they should put in three cards off the men's tees just like the other members.

Lets be honest some " grown up members " can't play to 28 hcap and I know some who have moved to easier courses.

As for cat1 juniors it's nice to see the stars of the future hit is 300+ but not all young people can do this but play in comps because their dad thinks they can.

I'm not sure what you aren't convinced about!

Courses and carries are a very simple function of a players ability to meet that carry - whether junior, female or senior (as well as Joe average 24 handicap gorrila)

That a committee setsnupmtheir course in a manner that precludes the playing of the game for a section, or sections, is, as Rulefan already commented in a different context, old school. There are extremely few courses where the underlying layout creates such a situation (I know there are a few) but being able to carry 220 isnt a recipie for a good course, only a poor committee.

 

[Colin L]

Over water you run out of balls , in a comp you can't borrow any so you are marking a card or on your way back to the clubhouse.

There's nothing to stop you borrowing golf balls during the competition round - or at least trying to as there may be some reluctance to lend you balls just to see them being pointlessly hacked into the water.

 

[clubchamp98]

There's nothing to stop you borrowing golf balls during the competition round - or at least trying to as there may be some reluctance to lend you balls just to see them being pointlessly hacked into the water.

Always thought in a medal you can't borrow equipment off another competitor?

 

[rulefan]

Always thought in a medal you can't borrow equipment off another competitor?

You are only prohibited from borrowing a club off another competitor (in any form of golf).

 

[rulefan]

I am as I said in my first post not against juniors playing in comps but they should put in three cards off the men's tees just like the other members.

To get a CONGU handicap of 28 a player has to put in a minimum of 3 cards. There has never been any suggestion in this thread that the junior did not have a handicap.

Lets be honest some " grown up members " can't play to 28 hcap and I know some who have moved to easier courses.

But you didn't suggest that they shouldn't be permitted to play from the white tees.

 

[GaryK]

As the OP on this thread, I'd like to add some more info and thoughts...
The comp in question was a Stableford, not a medal.
Our club does not have sufficient junior memberships to enable junior comps (I believe that the lad in question is a member of another club for this reason).

So he has a CONGU handicap of 28, but in real terms he may realistically play as a 30, 34, 36, etc.
Given that ladies HC goes up to 36, then why can't juniors be the same (up to the age of 12 or 13 surely would be reasonable).
Ladies get to play off the reds - why is that? Because, they [generally speaking] do not have the same athletic ability/strength as men to hit the ball as far, so why make it different for juniors(read, youngsters)?

Personally, I applaud the lad and his dad for getting him entered into the comp, but at least give him a reasonable chance to do "OK" rather the propping up the rear. Even if it meant allowing him to play off the yellows (which our club allows for HC qualification). Expecting a child to play off the same tee as adult men (who have on the majority a lot more experience on the course) just doesn't seem right to me.

We should be striving to bring the younger generation into the game, enabling them to "compete" is only ever going to be a good thing.
Having said that, I do appreciate the comments around the idea of wanting to compete in adult comps, then you play to the adult rules.
Maybe he should just stick with junior comps at another club for a few years before stepping up.

 

[Colin L]

Junior handicaps go up to 54.

 

[rulefan]

So he has a CONGU handicap of 28, but in real terms he may realistically play as a 30, 34, 36, etc.

As will many players who are 'officially' off 28 and are unwilling to admit it.

Given that ladies HC goes up to 36, then why can't juniors be the same (up to the age of 12 or 13 surely would be reasonable).
Ladies get to play off the reds - why is that? Because, they [generally speaking] do not have the same athletic ability/strength as men to hit the ball as far, so why make it different for juniors(read, youngsters)?

There is now of course the facility to move to a CONGU Club Handicap which goes up to 54. This has always been available for juniors.

CONGU and England Golf specifically encourage clubs to include juniors in club competitions but also encourage clubs to have multiple tees. This, to allow players to play from tees according to their physical ability not just their skills.
For them to have qualifying scores, they must of course play from measured tees assessed for their gender. Most clubs though, do not have red tees rated for males.
As a result of the new rating requirements, many clubs are taking the opportunity to do this and also introduce shorter green tees for both genders.

Personally, I applaud the lad and his dad for getting him entered into the comp, but at least give him a reasonable chance to do "OK" rather the propping up the rear. Even if it meant allowing him to play off the yellows (which our club allows for HC qualification). Expecting a child to play off the same tee as adult men (who have on the majority a lot more experience on the course) just doesn't seem right to me.

He is probably no more or less likely to prop up the rear than most 26+ handicappers.
He will only gain experience by playing on the course. But if he is not capable physically of playing it, then he should be allowed to play off forward tees.
CONGU requires that clubs provide all members, having official handicaps, with sufficient opportunity to play in qualifying competitions to provide reasonable evidence of their current ability.

 

[clubchamp98]

We have a measured blue course for juniors.
Its 5000 yds that is 1600 yds shorter than the whites.
So for a junior to play off the whites is equal to me stepping onto an 8200 yard golf course.
I would not fancy playing to 6 hcap at that distance.
Its about common , sense you could ruin some youngsters game if they can't make fairway and are hacking out of the rough every hole as we have some longish carries of some tees.
But as I said if good enough then old enough , I am all for it!.

 

[rulefan]

All juniors should not be lumped together. They are as individual as adults. If a junior has qualified for an official CONGU handicap he probably should now be playing most of his comps off different tees. All players should generally play off tees where they feel comfortable with the length. Age per se is an irrelevance.