Junior Doctors Strike

[Crazyface]

I went for a job interview a few weeks ago, I followed the signs posted to guide all candidates to the interview location. I walked though a door that opened up into a massive room full of clerical staff. As I chatted to the bloke who was given the task of taking my information proving who I was and was entitled to work in the UK, you wouldn't believe it, he painted a grim picture of how things work clerically. constantly changing on the whim of people in charge. Utter shambles.

PS I'm STILL waiting for the outcome 4 weeks later. the job on the NHS site is at a status of "Decision Pending"

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Mind you she thinks that maybe that's what they are trying to achieve. Cut back the role and level of nurse required to deliver her service so that the service can be outsourced to Virgin Heathcare or another private healthcare provider.

The NHS we have is going to hell in a handcart unless we all dig deep into our pockets through increased and probably a hypothecated NHS income tax

I agree it is a big IF but if there are no cost implications and the quality is at least equal does it matter if that service is provided by the private sector.

On your other point I am in total agreement. We all want a top quality NHS but all seem to think it is someone else's responsibility to pay for it.

I don't know, however, if we as a nation can ever provide "enough" funding as science and research constantly develop new treatments and drugs all of which have significant cost implications and to someone each of those treatments etc; is vital.

 

[shewy]

I'm going to take the simplistic view on this, why do we need a 7 day NHS? Are these people not entitled to a weekend off after a hard week to recharge the batteries?
Yes by all means have emergency cover at weekends but surely most routine stuff can wait until the working week, are these people not entitled to a life?
Also (and I don't know the answer) what about the working time directive? does it not apply to the NHS?
As for the politicians voting themselves a big wage rise and giving the majority 1% at most is an absolute disgrace. I'd love to see the hours worked by an MP for the year, even when they are there there either asleep or scamming the expenses. Shame on them.
B.T.W 7 day cover is called BUPA.

 

[Ethan]

Does anyone know why they are striking? I think its because they won't get paid shed loads for working on a weekend. Hey you know what? That went out YEARS AGO!!!! You chose the profession. You get very well paid. Shut up and get on with it.

If you don't know anything about a subject, it is best to just stay quiet.

This dispute is NOT about money. The Secretary of State for Health has said there is no more money, and the BMA have acknowledged that.

This dispute is about a hard working group of professionals who have been pushed too far and aren't willing to take any more. Junior Doctors are those in hospital training positions who have not yet reached Consultant. That means they can be in their mid-30s and they represent the key group of doctors covering our 24/7 NHS. These doctors work long hours already and most work at least 1 in 3 weekends as it stands. This dispute will increase that so they work as many weekends as they have off. And they will still work the weekdays. Work intensity is high and it is being burdened with increasing bureaucracy. They do NOT get paid shedloads for working weekends. They don't even get paid their standard rate. I used to get paid 38% of my standard rate for overtime. Not time plus 38%, time minus 62%. A typical registrar in medicine gets paid about £45K a year. That is for saving your life after a heart attack, traeting your gran for dementia or treating your kids fracture after they fall off their skateboard. Sounds like a bargain to me.

The argument about a 7 day NHS is a lie. The data Hunt cites is contradicted by his own Medical Director of the NHS, who says that it is not possible to say why deaths at the weekend are higher, although it may be due to case-mix (that people who come in at the weekends are sicker), and that there is no evidence that upending staffing levels will make any difference. Yet on the back of this, Hunt is making another fundamental NHS reorganisation.

There will be no 7 day NHS, at least not an elective one. That would cost £20billion a year or so, and the NHS can't afford the current set up. There have been pilot studies of weekend clinics in hospitals and GP and they have attracted low levels of interest from patients.

The real subtext, though, is that the Government (including New Labour) have been moving towards a privatised NHS for some years, really since Ken Clarke and the internal market. This is sucking a massive amount of money that could be used for frontline healthcare, and that will get worse. The private companies like 'flexible' workforces, who can be moved around in the week or between jobs, so this change to JD contracts is part of that. The Chief Exec of NHS England, formerly worked for the DH and a US private healthcare company, and is really the driver behind this.

For some years now, medicine as a profession has been declining, due to reduced prospects, eroded pensions (which are a form of deferred salary), and more and more bureaucracy, which has meant that more and more UK doctors are going to Oz, NZ and Canada where they can practice as doctors should be able to.

Even if the Govt surrender in this dispute (and they won't), the junior doctors will not get any more money. Like I said, it isn't about money. It is really about whether medicine remains a viable profession in the UK and whether further steps along the road to a privatised NHS are made easier.

I was one of those junior doctors about 20 odd years ago, and I support them 100%. This is an existential crisis for them and if they lose, we all will.

 

[Ethan]

If the 7 day a week proposal is such an issue why are there no nurses and consultants out on strike? Do they not care, is it only junior doctors who want to protect the NHS? The junior doctors are not there to make those judgements, they are there to treat people. Argue about working conditions or pay rates but not decisions such as this.

With regards to the manifesto, you can apply that to all points or decisions. The fact is it was in the manifesto so the Tories have a right to press ahead with this. We do not vote based on individual policies, it does not work that way. You would hope they would amend it to suit but basically if it was in they are entitled to press ahead with it.

The Consultant Contract is next on the list.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

The Consultant Contract is next on the list.

Shortly followed by nurses, I imagine!

I can't believe all the people commenting on this who haven't read up on any it beyond paper headlines. I've looked into it, nowhere near enough to comment in detail, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Ethan has said it better than I ever will, but even as a "true blue", this is not good.

 

[Ethan]

Shortly followed by nurses, I imagine!

I can't believe all the people commenting on this who haven't read up on any it beyond paper headlines. I've looked into it, nowhere near enough to comment in detail, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Ethan has said it better than I ever will, but even as a "true blue", this is not good.

The papers are all serving their own agenda. The Telegraph deplores this strike, the Mirror loves it, The Sun is suspicious of strikes but hates Cameron, The Mail doesn't like doctors (Paul Dacre, at least), the BBC is kissing up to the Govt etc.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I just think that the whole notion of doctors working 70 plus hours a week is bonkers, these people are making life or death decisions which might effect you or your loved ones. How can they possibly function properly?

I was in hospital for 3 days a couple of weeks ago, spoke to a couple of them about their shifts, one was working a 22 hour shift, but it was ok because after 11pm he was "on Call" so would spend most of that time sleeping --(in theory) in practice he was on the go all that time, grabbing a sandwich on the go and barely time for a loo break.

he looked tired and jaded and said it was normal.

Its just wrong

 

[Snelly]

If you don't know anything about a subject, it is best to just stay quiet.

This dispute is NOT about money. The Secretary of State for Health has said there is no more money, and the BMA have acknowledged that.

This dispute is about a hard working group of professionals who have been pushed too far and aren't willing to take any more. Junior Doctors are those in hospital training positions who have not yet reached Consultant. That means they can be in their mid-30s and they represent the key group of doctors covering our 24/7 NHS. These doctors work long hours already and most work at least 1 in 3 weekends as it stands. This dispute will increase that so they work as many weekends as they have off. And they will still work the weekdays. Work intensity is high and it is being burdened with increasing bureaucracy. They do NOT get paid shedloads for working weekends. They don't even get paid their standard rate. I used to get paid 38% of my standard rate for overtime. Not time plus 38%, time minus 62%. A typical registrar in medicine gets paid about £45K a year. That is for saving your life after a heart attack, traeting your gran for dementia or treating your kids fracture after they fall off their skateboard. Sounds like a bargain to me.

The argument about a 7 day NHS is a lie. The data Hunt cites is contradicted by his own Medical Director of the NHS, who says that it is not possible to say why deaths at the weekend are higher, although it may be due to case-mix (that people who come in at the weekends are sicker), and that there is no evidence that upending staffing levels will make any difference. Yet on the back of this, Hunt is making another fundamental NHS reorganisation.

There will be no 7 day NHS, at least not an elective one. That would cost £20billion a year or so, and the NHS can't afford the current set up. There have been pilot studies of weekend clinics in hospitals and GP and they have attracted low levels of interest from patients.

The real subtext, though, is that the Government (including New Labour) have been moving towards a privatised NHS for some years, really since Ken Clarke and the internal market. This is sucking a massive amount of money that could be used for frontline healthcare, and that will get worse. The private companies like 'flexible' workforces, who can be moved around in the week or between jobs, so this change to JD contracts is part of that. The Chief Exec of NHS England, formerly worked for the DH and a US private healthcare company, and is really the driver behind this.

For some years now, medicine as a profession has been declining, due to reduced prospects, eroded pensions (which are a form of deferred salary), and more and more bureaucracy, which has meant that more and more UK doctors are going to Oz, NZ and Canada where they can practice as doctors should be able to.

Even if the Govt surrender in this dispute (and they won't), the junior doctors will not get any more money. Like I said, it isn't about money. It is really about whether medicine remains a viable profession in the UK and whether further steps along the road to a privatised NHS are made easier.

I was one of those junior doctors about 20 odd years ago, and I support them 100%. This is an existential crisis for them and if they lose, we all will.

I listened to BBC Radio Sheffield this morning and specifically, the interview with the spokesman for the junior doctors in our region, in which he was asked this opening question, "Is this strike about more money?" His answer - "It is about more money yes, but not just that, it is about blah, blah...."

It would seem from your waffling impersonation of a GCSE politics student that he is either lying, mistaken or you are wrong?

The latter would be my bet.


Existential crisis? Perhaps, especially if you are referring to the existence of more cash in junior doctors wallets.

This strike is about wages - almost every strike is. Anyone claiming otherwise is blinkered or naive.

 

[Ethan]

I just think that the whole notion of doctors working 70 plus hours a week is bonkers, these people are making life or death decisions which might effect you or your loved ones. How can they possibly function properly?

I was in hospital for 3 days a couple of weeks ago, spoke to a couple of them about their shifts, one was working a 22 hour shift, but it was ok because after 11pm he was "on Call" so would spend most of that time sleeping --(in theory) in practice he was on the go all that time, grabbing a sandwich on the go and barely time for a loo break.

he looked tired and jaded and said it was normal.

Its just wrong

In my houseman year, I worked up to 120 hours a week. We did a 1 in 2.75 rota, which meant we did every weekday 8.30 to 5.30, plus every third night, plus a second doctor worked on 'take nights' which were 1 in 6 nights, plus we all covered each others leave. A few times I was so tired I drove home, arrived home and couldn't remember leaving the hospital or driving home.

As an SHO, a couple of years later, we did a 1 in 4, which was only about 80 hours, but every 1 in 3 weekends, I worked from Friday morning through to Monday 5pm, then back on duty Tuesday morning.

One New Years Eve, I was sitting in a Casualty having seen someone with chest pain and admitted them. The porter arrived to take the patient to the ward and said to me 'Bummer, doc, working tonight. Still, at least we are getting triple time'. 'I'm not' I said, 'I'm getting 38% of my standard rate'. 'Time plus 38%?' he asked. 'No, just 38%'. 'Jesus, doc, I thought you lot were supposed to [redacted] smart'.

Junior Doctors have always been paid badly for overtime. They are not doing it for the money, but they have mortgages and families to support, and when you do 60 or 70 hours, you have more childcare to cover. When you are earning an hourly rate which after tax doesn't pay the childcare, you are not doing it for the money.

 

[Snelly]

In my houseman year, I worked up to 120 hours a week. We did a 1 in 2.75 rota, which meant we did every weekday 8.30 to 5.30, plus every third night, plus a second doctor worked on 'take nights' which were 1 in 6 nights, plus we all covered each others leave. A few times I was so tired I drove home, arrived home and couldn't remember leaving the hospital or driving home.

As an SHO, a couple of years later, we did a 1 in 4, which was only about 80 hours, but every 1 in 3 weekends, I worked from Friday morning through to Monday 5pm, then back on duty Tuesday morning.

One New Years Eve, I was sitting in a Casualty having seen someone with chest pain and admitted them. The porter arrived to take the patient to the ward and said to me 'Bummer, doc, working tonight. Still, at least we are getting triple time'. 'I'm not' I said, 'I'm getting 38% of my standard rate'. 'Time plus 38%?' he asked. 'No, just 38%'. 'Jesus, doc, I thought you lot were supposed to [redacted] smart'.

Junior Doctors have always been paid badly for overtime. They are not doing it for the money, but they have mortgages and families to support, and when you do 60 or 70 hours, you have more childcare to cover. When you are earning an hourly rate which after tax doesn't pay the childcare, you are not doing it for the money.

None of this is news. Everyone who signs up for this as a career knows what they are walking into unless they are a total idiot.

Suck it up doctors and get back to work.

 

[Ethan]

I listened to BBC Radio Sheffield this morning and specifically, the interview with the spokesman for the junior doctors in our region, in which he was asked this opening question, "Is this strike about more money?" His answer - "It is about more money yes, but not just that, it is about blah, blah...."

It would seem from your waffling impersonation of a GCSE politics student that he is either lying, mistaken or you are wrong?

The latter would be my bet.


Existential crisis? Perhaps, especially if you are referring to the existence of more cash in junior doctors wallets.

This strike is about wages - almost every strike is. Anyone claiming otherwise is blinkered or naive.

If I could give a toss about your trolling and snarky opinion, I would respond. See below:

 

[balaclava]

I do not support the junior doctors. It is about money.
My experience of the NHS is that it is a bloated, badly managed dinosaur of a service .

I agree with you - It's all about money, they want as much as they can get and will use the nations love of the NHS to line their own pockets.
AND, I agree with the that the NHS is overstaffed and underemployed (badly managed). I have lived and worked in other countries and can compare, other hospitals in other countries (or private hospitals in this country) get through twice the work load on half as many staff because they are managed. The NHS is just like every nationalised industry, overstaffed under-employed and overpaid. The doctors on strike are a disgrace.

 

[balaclava]

If you don't know anything about a subject, it is best to just stay quiet.
This dispute is NOT about money.

It is ABSOLUTELY about money. It's about a bunch of prima donnas who convince each other that their 4 years at medical school (subsidised by the tax-payer) followed by 'x' learning years in hospital on full pay entitles them to MORE and MORE money. They need some medicine, it's called reality pills.

 

[Ethan]

I agree with you - It's all about money, they want as much as they can get and will use the nations love of the NHS to line their own pockets.
AND, I agree with the that the NHS is overstaffed and underemployed (badly managed). I have lived and worked in other countries and can compare, other hospitals in other countries (or private hospitals in this country) get through twice the work load on half as many staff because they are managed. The NHS is just like every nationalised industry, overstaffed under-employed and overpaid. The doctors on strike are a disgrace.

Well, you have convinced me with all those well researched and referenced gross generalisations. I am even considering moving to one of the unstated or possibly imaginary countries where you lived. How was the golf there?

 

[USER1999]

In my houseman year, I worked up to 120 hours a week. We did a 1 in 2.75 rota, which meant we did every weekday 8.30 to 5.30, plus every third night, plus a second doctor worked on 'take nights' which were 1 in 6 nights, plus we all covered each others leave. A few times I was so tired I drove home, arrived home and couldn't remember leaving the hospital or driving home.

As an SHO, a couple of years later, we did a 1 in 4, which was only about 80 hours, but every 1 in 3 weekends, I worked from Friday morning through to Monday 5pm, then back on duty Tuesday morning.

One New Years Eve, I was sitting in a Casualty having seen someone with chest pain and admitted them. The porter arrived to take the patient to the ward and said to me 'Bummer, doc, working tonight. Still, at least we are getting triple time'. 'I'm not' I said, 'I'm getting 38% of my standard rate'. 'Time plus 38%?' he asked. 'No, just 38%'. 'Jesus, doc, I thought you lot were supposed to [redacted] smart'.

Junior Doctors have always been paid badly for overtime. They are not doing it for the money, but they have mortgages and families to support, and when you do 60 or 70 hours, you have more childcare to cover. When you are earning an hourly rate which after tax doesn't pay the childcare, you are not doing it for the money.

My Mrs worked these hours too. It's why she is no longer working for the NHS. They work fewer hours these days, but it's still not a job I'd want. I value my sleep.

I don't like them being on strike, but I can see why they are.

Money isn't worth much if you don't have any time off to enjoy it.

 

[Snelly]

If I could give a toss about your trolling and snarky opinion, I would respond. See below:

Steady love. You'll end up with a self-infraction. If you do you can probably get a cream for it, but not from a junior doctor, least not today as they are all in the pub.

And for the record, I am not trolling - I have articulated my opinion. Your response is perfectly understandable and natural though as it is the standard reaction of anyone in the liberal middle classes to anyone with a differing view.

So if you can see this far down off your high horse, who is right? The junior doctor in Sheffield who said this morning on BBC radio that in fact, the strike was absolutely about more money, or you? One of you is completely wrong.

 

[balaclava]

Well, you have convinced me with all those well researched and referenced gross generalisations. I am even considering moving to one of the unstated or possibly imaginary countries where you lived. How was the golf there?

I've lived and worked in 5 different countries (6 including the UK). I can compare apples with apples. I'll give you an example (one of many) . . . I have had BSC's for more than 20 years and get them cut out on a regular basis. I can compare the number of staff involved and the amount of time and bureaucracy involved from hospitals in other countries compared with the UK and I can tell you without any doubt that the UK has twice and many doctors, nurses, and support staff than any other country I've been in. The NHS is just badly managed it isn't managed at all, the Consultants do what ever they want to do when they want to do it and it trickles down from there. That's fact.

And the golf is better not least because they (generally) have a more egalitarian culture where doctors play golf with ordinary mortals and not just other doctors.

 

[HowlingGale]

Have to say I don't side with the docs on this. I work for the NHS and have been shafted time and time again with Agenda for change etc.

It's their turn to take a hit as us all other staff have had it for years but we won't look forward to a huge 6 figure salary. Oh and i know of consultants doubling that 6 figure salary with a little bit of overtime.

And to use £45k as some sort of justification of being a low wage for the job they do shows you're not on this planet.

 

[Foxholer]

I do not support the junior doctors. It is about money. Striking is not the answer, talking is. Striking when you are paid to help the sick and injured is lower than whale poo.


My experience of the NHS is that it is a bloated, badly managed dinosaur of a service and I am in favour of moving to a privatised healthcare system. The French model would be a good one to follow.

I DO support the 'Junior' Doctors! I agree it's (mainly) about money, but there seem to be some sinister 'other factors' - primarily back-door preparation for privatisation - that worry me! However, the basic issue is that the Tories promised a 24/7 NHS without properly costing it - or assuming they could simply impose their will on the staff required to deliver their promise!

Also agree that talking is much better than striking, but JDs have been 'forced' to take the strike route because Government isn't prepared to talk! As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what 'industry' is involved..strikes are a last resort these days!

It seems to me that the 'bloatedness' you refer to is more because of the drain caused by (non-medical) management and systems than by the medical areas. Though any health service is actually a bottomless (money-) pit!