Junior Doctors Strike

[Ethan]

I've lived and worked in 5 different countries (6 including the UK). I can compare apples with apples. I'll give you an example (one of many) . . . I have had BSC's for more than 20 years and get them cut out on a regular basis. I can compare the number of staff involved and the amount of time and bureaucracy involved from hospitals in other countries compared with the UK and I can tell you without any doubt that the UK has twice and many doctors, nurses, and support staff than any other country I've been in. The NHS is just badly managed it isn't managed at all, the Consultants do what ever they want to do when they want to do it and it trickles down from there. That's fact.

And the golf is better not least because they (generally) have a more egalitarian culture where doctors play golf with ordinary mortals and not just other doctors.

Anytime someone says that is fact, they are talking total crap. So again it proves to be. The U.K. is certainly not over doctored compared to most western countries. You haven't even named one of these countries so it could still all be in your imagination. Now perhaps you attract a crowd of staff to one of your BSC excisions but don't assume that is representative and there is no good data available for that.

For those in the real world, the U.K. has fewer doctors per capita than many comparator countries. Balaclava looks like a Daily Mail reader, so check out what they have to say:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...00-people-fewer-Latvia-Estonia-Lithuania.html

 

[Ethan]

Steady love. You'll end up with a self-infraction. If you do you can probably get a cream for it, but not from a junior doctor, least not today as they are all in the pub.

And for the record, I am not trolling - I have articulated my opinion. Your response is perfectly understandable and natural though as it is the standard reaction of anyone in the liberal middle classes to anyone with a differing view.

So if you can see this far down off your high horse, who is right? The junior doctor in Sheffield who said this morning on BBC radio that in fact, the strike was absolutely about more money, or you? One of you is completely wrong.

That reminds me, I must put the bins out.

 

[HowlingGale]

I DO support the 'Junior' Doctors! I agree it's (mainly) about money, but there seem to be some sinister 'other factors' - primarily back-door preparation for privatisation - that worry me! However, the basic issue is that the Tories promised a 24/7 NHS without properly costing it - or assuming they could simply impose their will on the staff required to deliver their promise!

Also agree that talking is much better than striking, but JDs have been 'forced' to take the strike route because Government isn't prepared to talk! As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what 'industry' is involved..strikes are a last resort these days!

It seems to me that the 'bloatedness' you refer to is more because of the drain caused by (non-medical) management and systems than by the medical areas. Though any health service is actually a bottomless (money-) pit!

I don't see the big problem with privatisation. It will certainly get rid of all the deadwood floating about the place. That includes non-medical and medical staff.

Too many ornaments working in the NHS. The amount of consultants who are handless never ceases to amaze me. They need to have their bums wiped by anyone and everyone half the time.

 

[Snelly]

That reminds me, I must put the bins out.

A poor response Ethan.


Stick to the subject of exotic golf shafts would be my advice. No class angst bias in that field and you seem to know your stuff.

 

[Ethan]

A poor response Ethan.


Stick to the subject of exotic golf shafts would be my advice. No class angst bias in that field and you seem to know your stuff.

You are making assumptions about me. One of these is to accept a hearsay comment made by an unnamed doctor on Radio Sheffield. The Chairman of BMA Council, whom I have known for over 25 years, says it isn't about more money. Who should I believe? Him, or your unnamed correspondent?

The BMA have accepted that the pay envelope, as the DH calls it, is fixed. That means no more money. Same money, same number of doctors means no net increases. What they are concerned about is a rebalancing of the work week towards weekends, as a fix for a problem which probably doesn't really exist, and if it did, best case would be that you would simply distribute deaths through the week. As I said before, but you did not comment on it, even the paper in the BMJ published by the NHS Medical director, who works for Hunt, said that the reason for the weekend effect is not known and staff changes may have no effect.

 

[Hobbit]

I've just read up on the new T's&C's, hours, pay rise. I also read up on the death rates for midweek, Saturday and Sunday. I'm missing something coz it looks very attractive. Is it because its more weekend work and more time off mid week?

Unless someone has a link to something different, sorry but I just don't get what the juniors doctors gripe is.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I've just read up on the new T's&C's, hours, pay rise. I also read up on the death rates for midweek, Saturday and Sunday. I'm missing something coz it looks very attractive. Is it because its more weekend work and more time off mid week?

Unless someone has a link to something different, sorry but I just don't get what the juniors doctors gripe is.

Where did you read up on the weekend death rates? Did you read anything that suggests this new contract would improve them? Or did you read up on anything that suggested the reasons behind differing death rates for those who are admitted at weekends?

 

[Hobbit]

Where did you read up on the weekend death rates? Did you read anything that suggests this new contract would improve them? Or did you read up on anything that suggested the reasons behind differing death rates for those who are admitted at weekends?

You've picked up on one point. What about the 33% pay rise, covering a longer spread of hours? And for info, it is on the BBC's website.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

You've picked up on one point. What about the 33% pay rise, covering a longer spread of hours? And for info, it is on the BBC's website.

I did indeed pick up on the one point, being the main justification point from the Health Secretary, that has been completely and utterly shot down.

33% payrise? More like 13% payrise in base pay (I believe), with a cut in other pay. As far as i've seen, this doesn't result in a pay rise for anyone. And this still comes back to "why do we need more staff at weekends"? Until he can prove that, then this whole thing is a wasted exercise, prepping for privatisation.

 

[Fish]

And so we have a two day strike by Junior Doctors and we hear Jeremy Hunt opining that they are try to "bring down the government" - and that what they are doing is fundamentally undemocratic as the the 7-day NHS was in the manifesto. I have to say that I don't recall that or it being debated at the time - maybe it wasn't deemed that significant a pledge so not worth bothering to much about. Anyway.

Truth is if the Tories really want to deliver on a manifesto pledge of 7-day NHS - well they can - just not the way they are trying to do it at the moment. Hunt's complaints are actually not much more than diversionary hot air.

I bet you're great fun at parties :mmm:

 

[Fish]

If I could give a toss about your trolling and snarky opinion, I would respond. See below:

I have noticed a lot recently that you seem to be very rude and are constantly making personal attacks on people who don't agree with your opinion on things, If this was a forumite we would be facing or indeed receiving warnings or infractions, what gives you carte blanche to be so rude and make personal slights on people without any moderation, I think you have just lately well exceeded your authority with your comments and its been well noticed by quite a lot on here, I think you need to wind your neck in at times, I'm aware mods can't moderate other mods but your comments of late in the EU topic and now on here are against the rules of the forum which we have to adhere to, so I suggest you take stock of them also, I'm not like some on here who run to the teacher all the time unless I think it's fully justified, but I'm happy to go to Mike with a complaint about you shortly if you don't change your insulting posting style!

Steady love. You'll end up with a self-infraction. If you do you can probably get a cream for it, but not from a junior doctor, least not today as they are all in the pub.

And for the record, I am not trolling - I have articulated my opinion. Your response is perfectly understandable and natural though as it is the standard reaction of anyone in the liberal middle classes to anyone with a differing view.

So if you can see this far down off your high horse, who is right? The junior doctor in Sheffield who said this morning on BBC radio that in fact, the strike was absolutely about more money, or you? One of you is completely wrong.

:thup:

 

[Ethan]

You've picked up on one point. What about the 33% pay rise, covering a longer spread of hours? And for info, it is on the BBC's website.

Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.

 

[Ethan]

I have noticed a lot recently that you seem to be very rude and are constantly making personal attacks on people who don't agree with your opinion on things, If this was a forumite we would be facing or indeed receiving warnings or infractions, what gives you carte blanche to be so rude and make personal slights on people without any moderation, I think you have just lately well exceeded your authority with your comments and its been well noticed by quite a lot on here, I think you need to wind your neck in at times, I'm aware mods can't moderate other mods but your comments of late in the EU topic and now on here are against the rules of the forum which we have to adhere to, so I suggest you take stock of them also, I'm not like some on here who run to the teacher all the time unless I think it's fully justified, but I'm happy to go to Mike with a complaint about you shortly if you don't change your insulting posting style!



:thup:

Be my guest. Go right ahead. Whine to Mike. Throw some toys out of the cot while you are at it.

 

[Junior]

I can only comment based on what I've read and heard in the news but I don't quite get the junior doctors position.

Everything I've heard and read tells me that they will receive on average a 13.5% pay rise, a reduction in hours , BUT day rates for weekend between 9-5 will be at a normal rate. 99% of junior doctors will be better off and the 1 % who won't are those who today do lots of extra hours and qualify for premium rates.

The problem is that to level out the hours, more doctors will work at weekends but when they do, they won't work as many hours during the week. What's the problem with this, do the junior doctors not believe the proposal regarding hours?

It just sounds like a good deal to me. I must be missing something as I don't blame the govt for not wanting to negotiate further. Maybe it's the media-spin but the junior doctors seem to want to have their cake and eat it.

 

[Fish]

Be my guest. Go right ahead. Whine to Mike. Throw some toys out of the cot while you are at it.

I rest my case :clap:

 

[chrisd]

Be my guest. Go right ahead. Whine to Mike. Throw some toys out of the cot while you are at it.

To be fair Ethan, Fish has a valid point, you're postings are quite rude and I'm not sure that they are consistent with being a moderator

 

[Ethan]

I can only comment based on what I've read and heard in the news but I don't quite get the junior doctors position.

Everything I've heard and read tells me that they will receive on average a 13.5% pay rise, a reduction in hours , BUT day rates for weekend between 9-5 will be at a normal rate. 99% of junior doctors will be better off and the 1 % who won't are those who today do lots of extra hours and qualify for premium rates.

The problem is that to level out the hours, more doctors will work at weekends but when they do, they won't work as many hours during the week. What's the problem with this, do the junior doctors not believe the proposal regarding hours?

It just sounds like a good deal to me. I must be missing something as I don't blame the govt for not wanting to negotiate further. Maybe it's the media-spin but the junior doctors seem to want to have their cake and eat it.

You are missing quite a lot. The overall pay bill for junior doctors is not going to increase. That was the basic premise of the whole negotiation. There is no possible scenario in which you keep the total pay the same but 99% are better off unless you cut numbers, and the DH has said they will increase numbers. Show me where you read that 99% will be better off.

In fact, not even Jeremy Hunt claims that. He claims that doctors will not be worse off.

 

[MarkE]

It's basically all about the doctors not wanting to give up the pay perks for working 'unsociable' weekends. Meanwhile, back in the real world, those days are long since over and nobody gets these pay boosts any longer. It's the NHS gravy train.

 

[Ethan]

It's basically all about the doctors not wanting to give up the pay perks for working 'unsociable' weekends. Meanwhile, back in the real world, those days are long since over and nobody gets these pay boosts any longer. It's the NHS gravy train.

Really. What are these perks?

 

[Hobbit]

Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.

Its on the BBC's website, including 3 different graphs showing the rates paid at different times of the day. Get off your arris and look through BBC's website. Then you can email the beeb and tell them what you think.