Junior Doctors Strike

[Hobbit]

When does a hospital not deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients?

I was answering/asking Mark. Read it in context of what BM posted and Kellfire's response. And having worked for and with the NHS for over 25yrs I have a pretty good idea of their operational prowess.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

When an inpatient needs something that the stores have, but the stores are shut because it's the weekend.

Never would anything a patient needs urgently, not be provided to them at any point. Day or night, weekend or not.

Why should private healthcare use NHS staff?
If China and India can afford space programs and the like, they don't need our aid we give them..so we would have more money to then spend on our NHS.

Private healthcare use NHS staff, because they pay the NHS for it. Meaning there is more money in the system for those not paying for private.

Where have you been for the last 8 years? The NHS has been crippled because of overspending. I know lots of people who have taken a hit in pay. Private and public sector.

Live in the real world. The one where we must make sacrifices in order to continue our way of life.

Live in the real world? I like to think I do, being involved with healthcare on both a professional and personal level (and no I'm not a dr). I am yet to see a good reason for cutting doctors pay. (i wish people would agree, half the people are saying dr's wont lose pay!).

How does making doctors work longer, and more unsafe hours = a good thing? Jeremy Hunt already said the cost of dr's won't decrease, so that doesn't impact your "need to save money" point. All it is is stretching an already thin resource, even thinner.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I was answering/asking Mark. Read it in context of what BM posted and Kellfire's response. And having worked for and with the NHS for over 25yrs I have a pretty good idea of their operational prowess.

I do appreciate your experience, and ca'nt argue with your experiences. I just question how "standard" it would be not to give this 24/7 care. I know a lot of nurses, and they would massively disagree with that.

 

[palindromicbob]

Big focus on physical health care when people talk about privatisation.

If you think mental health care is bad now then just watch what happens when it's privatised.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Never would anything a patient needs urgently, not be provided to them at any point. Day or night, weekend or not.


Private healthcare use NHS staff, because they pay the NHS for it. Meaning there is more money in the system for those not paying for private.
.

So if what you say is true, was my mother left to wait until 9 am Monday, for something she needed badly, when the stores would be opened again?

If NHS weren't working for the private sector the NHS wouldnt have to pay over the top agency staff to cover.

 

[HowlingGale]

Live in the real world? I like to think I do, being involved with healthcare on both a professional and personal level (and no I'm not a dr). I am yet to see a good reason for cutting doctors pay. (i wish people would agree, half the people are saying dr's wont lose pay!).

How does making doctors work longer, and more unsafe hours = a good thing? Jeremy Hunt already said the cost of dr's won't decrease, so that doesn't impact your "need to save money" point. All it is is stretching an already thin resource, even thinner.[/QUOTE]

That's good. So you'll have extensive knowledge of the realignment of T's & C's that were imposed on all other staff that the doctors were immune to. This resulted in pay cuts for many.

You'll also be acutely aware of the underfuning crisis which means vacancies are not being filled. Gues who picks up that slack. Yep, you've guessed it, the staff (not doctors) that are being paid less.

So we're working more hours for less pay but we don't have a nice new fluffy contact and accompanying pay rise.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Live in the real world? I like to think I do, being involved with healthcare on both a professional and personal level (and no I'm not a dr). I am yet to see a good reason for cutting doctors pay. (i wish people would agree, half the people are saying dr's wont lose pay!).

How does making doctors work longer, and more unsafe hours = a good thing? Jeremy Hunt already said the cost of dr's won't decrease, so that doesn't impact your "need to save money" point. All it is is stretching an already thin resource, even thinner.

That's good. So you'll have extensive knowledge of the realignment of T's & C's that were imposed on all other staff that the doctors were immune to. This resulted in pay cuts for many.

You'll also be acutely aware of the underfuning crisis which means vacancies are not being filled. Gues who picks up that slack. Yep, you've guessed it, the staff (not doctors) that are being paid less.

So we're working more hours for less pay but we don't have a nice new fluffy contact and accompanying pay rise.[/QUOTE]

My mate got hypothetically punched on a night out the other week. I guess I can't complain if anyone punches me now then.

You're completely confounding a race to the bottom. And so far your only argument for not supporting the doctors is that you suffered a pay cut, ergo they should to.

Any thoughts on the safety element of this whole argument?

 

[bluewolf]

Looks like some are drinking the "We're all in this together" Kool Aid a bit too eagerly... Some bitter, bitter people about...

 

[HowlingGale]

[Any thoughts on the safety element of this whole argument?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. They'll be rotad on the weekends they're meant to be working with days off to compensate. Don't ne fooled by the safety thing. Doctors work long hours just now. They'll just ne doing it more at weekends for a bit less pay.

And if you think a starting salary of 25k (quickly rising to 30k) for a 22-23 year old is a race to the bottom you have a very good life.

BTW I'm not bitter just trying to provide a bit of balance to the argument as i see what goes on daily.

 

[Kellfire]

Is it ok for someone to suffer or should a hospital be truly able to deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients? Note, I didn't advocate 24/7 for outpatient appointments.

It is ok to suffer? Obviously not, it would be fantastic to have full staffing availability 24/7/52 but we don't have the finances or the available personnel to make that happen at present.

I've been in the NHS for seven years now and was in a department that looked into the privatisation route back in 2011. At that time, I wasn't massively against it and I'm not now either. At the moment the NHS is still learning how to manage its finances like a private business after previously being a bit of a cash cow.

It might get there on its own, it might take going fully private to get the finances in order... or maybe it never will, maybe we simply don't have the resources to fund the NHS as we all know it.

I don't have the answers but I know blanket statements like "sack managers, hire nurses and doctors" don't help anyone.

 

[MarkE]

Really. What are these perks?

I'd call extra unsocial pay after 7pm weekdays a perk that's not available in any other industry. Same for working Saturdays.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Shortly followed by nurses, I imagine!

I can't believe all the people commenting on this who haven't read up on any it beyond paper headlines. I've looked into it, nowhere near enough to comment in detail, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Ethan has said it better than I ever will, but even as a "true blue", this is not good.

As said above - nowhere in my wife's contract does it say she'll work a day a week on the ward filling a band 2 role. It says she's expected to be flexible from time to time - but nothing about working on the ward as a permanent aspect of her job. So a change in her contract coming? They might try - but she'll leave.

 

[bluewolf]

And if you think a starting salary of 25k (quickly rising to 30k) for a 22-23 year old is a race to the bottom you have a very good life.

I was earning more than that at 22/23 and I had no formal qualifications beyond 6th form, I worked 37.5 hrs per week (all on days), and I wasn't responsible for keeping someone alive when every other factor said they should be dead...

I have zero issue with Doctor's wages.. In fact, when my wife told me how much they earned, I was shocked at how low it was for the job they did..

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I was earning more than that at 22/23 and I had no formal qualifications beyond 6th form, I worked 37.5 hrs per week (all on days), and I wasn't responsible for keeping someone alive when every other factor said they should be dead...

I have zero issue with Doctor's wages.. In fact, when my wife told me how much they earned, I was shocked at how low it was for the job they did..

I too was shocked at how low their salary is. And I also never realised how much a misnomer 'Junior' is - when in fact many are anything but junior. Junior Doctors basically being all doctors not consultants - so including registrars (registrars doing many of the operations)

£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.

 

[bluewolf]

I too was shocked at how low their salary is. And I also never realised how much a misnomer 'Junior' is - when in fact many are anything but junior. Junior Doctors basically being all doctors not consultants - so including registrars (registrars doing many of the operations)

£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.

About 11 years ago, my boy was taken into hospital with heart problems.. The Senior House Officer on at the time stayed with him all night, before transferring him to Pendlebury Hospital..

I spoke to him at length that night. He gave up his chance of some sleep to stay with me and wifey whilst monitoring my Son's heart.. He'd been on shift for over 30 hours, and hadn't eaten for over 15 hours.. The fact that I was earning more per year at that time still sticks with me now.. Doctor's, Nurses, NHS staff in general deserve to be treated better than this...

 

[MendieGK]

I dont know enough about the whole subject to comment and its clear everyone has vastly different views.

One question though -

Why would you 'sign up' to become a doctor?

Obviously there would be major issues if people didnt and i am forever grateful they do, but you can see the Sh!t you're going into - long hours, poor conditions, poor (relatively) pay so why would you do it?

as a comparable, I'd love to turn pro and become a coach, but know the money fairly bad, so i dont?

Genuine question - no agenda at all

 

[HowlingGale]

£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.

For a fresh-faced youngster with no experience? It's a good wage. They are intelligent there's no disputing that fact.

However I know equally intelligent people with a degree who didn't have a hope in hell of getting that straight out of uni.

That amount is for just one year. It goes up very, very quickly. More so than any others within the NHS. They are more than recompensed for their hard work.

 

[Ethan]

I dont know enough about the whole subject to comment and its clear everyone has vastly different views.

One question though -

Why would you 'sign up' to become a doctor?

Obviously there would be major issues if people didnt and i am forever grateful they do, but you can see the Sh!t you're going into - long hours, poor conditions, poor (relatively) pay so why would you do it?

as a comparable, I'd love to turn pro and become a coach, but know the money fairly bad, so i dont?

Genuine question - no agenda at all

Different reasons. Like science, like people, medical family, driven to get into best course for your grades. It is not easy to envisage as a A level student what a working life will look like a decade later. Medical School takes 5 years, and the initial training positions a few more. People who are just now completing their Foundation Years after graduating started medical school when things were rather different. Doctors towards the end of speciality training entered when it was very different. Almost all doctors dislike the new emphasis on pretending the NHS is run like a business, which distorts clinical practice, puts loads of useless bureaucracy and targets in the way.

It was always a long hours job, but work intensity has increased as hours have slowly fallen, and pay used to be relatively better. Pay hasn't kept up with inflation and the cost of pension contributions has risen as the value of the pension paid has fallen.

Conditions are better in Oz, NZ and Canada so a lot of junior doctors are voting with their feet.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I too was shocked at how low their salary is. And I also never realised how much a misnomer 'Junior' is - when in fact many are anything but junior. Junior Doctors basically being all doctors not consultants - so including registrars (registrars doing many of the operations)

£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.

Fully agree with this. A London Bus driver earns 25k. A newly qualified tube driver earns nearly 50k a year. I know which one of the three I need most and which I value highest.

I was earning more than that at 22/23 and I had no formal qualifications beyond 6th form, I worked 37.5 hrs per week (all on days), and I wasn't responsible for keeping someone alive when every other factor said they should be dead...

I have zero issue with Doctor's wages.. In fact, when my wife told me how much they earned, I was shocked at how low it was for the job they did..

Likewise, considering the responsibility on their shoulders. There are people I work with at a local authority earning more at a younger age without half the responsibility or any anti social hours.

For a fresh-faced youngster with no experience? It's a good wage. They are intelligent there's no disputing that fact.

However I know equally intelligent people with a degree who didn't have a hope in hell of getting that straight out of uni.

That amount is for just one year. It goes up very, very quickly. More so than any others within the NHS. They are more than recompensed for their hard work.

Ease up on the bitterness fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack. Mind you, if you do I can personally testify that you will be in very good hands, so if they earn that bit more for saving lives (as they did mine), please understand why I'm in the camp that doesn't begrudge them a penny, unlike some other trades & professions who are grossly overpaid in my opinion.

And if you think that cash alone is sufficient compensation for extended hours and shift working, maybe you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

 

[HowlingGale]

Ease up on the bitterness fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack. Mind you, if you do I can personally testify that you will be in very good hands, so if they earn that bit more for saving lives (as they did mine), please understand why I'm in the camp that doesn't begrudge them a penny, unlike some other trades & professions who are grossly overpaid in my opinion.

And if you think that cash alone is sufficient compensation for extended hours and shift working, maybe you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

Perfectly at ease thanks. No chance of a heart attack and no bitterness whatsoever. I know exactly the job they do. I see it daily. I'm not saying they don't deserve it.

What I'm saying is that in a time when there are massive spending cuts within the NHS the doctors have been more or less immune. Most other staff have been given cuts in pay, more work etc. They have squeezed other staff to breaking point.

Do they deserve a lot more than they get? Yes they do.

Do they deserve to remain on the level playing field they are currently on whilst everyone around them, supporting them are being shafted? Absolutely not.

Don't be fooled. Any changes to anything in the NHS is about saving money. The whole thing is at breaking point. Something needs to give. This time it's the doctors. Next time it'll be the rest of the staff.