Junior Doctors Strike

[SocketRocket]

Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.

Ethan, you really don't seem able to stop insulting people rather than using reasoned debate. Why don't you just explain your reasons to disagree rather than using these rather crude insults to the integrity of someone with a different opinion. You must be intelligent enough to understand that people are wired up differently and along with their life experiences will have varying views on subjects. It doesn't make them idiots, people that talk utter crap or complete cretins as you tend to often suggest.

Others would be far more likely to consider your opinion if it was tempered and persuasive by intelligent debate.

 

[Ethan]

Its on the BBC's website, including 3 different graphs showing the rates paid at different times of the day. Get off your arris and look through BBC's website. Then you can email the beeb and tell them what you think.

You don't even understand the data. That shows a set of hours (M-F 0700-1900) currently paid at basic rate with overtime (all other hours) paid at 20-100%, changed to a much larger group of hours (M-F 0700-2100, Sat 0700-1700) paid at basic rate plus 13.5% and a much smaller set paid at 33-50%. The overall effect is not an increase.

You are comparing 20-100 with 33-50 and concluding the latter is a big increase.

I will tell the Beeb their data is accurate but some people seem to be incapable of understanding it.

 

[Junior]

You are missing quite a lot. The overall pay bill for junior doctors is not going to increase. That was the basic premise of the whole negotiation. There is no possible scenario in which you keep the total pay the same but 99% are better off unless you cut numbers, and the DH has said they will increase numbers. Show me where you read that 99% will be better off.

In fact, not even Jeremy Hunt claims that. He claims that doctors will not be worse off.

Here .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980. It says a small number 1% will lose out, but then sky news does say 75% will be better off.

http://news.sky.com/story/1684491/junior-doctors-are-wrong-to-strike-says-pm

Either way, still seems a good deal. What do they actually want out of the negotiations ?

 

[Ethan]

Ethan, you really don't seem able to stop insulting people rather than using reasoned debate. Why don't you just explain your reasons to disagree rather than using these rather crude insults to the integrity of someone with a different opinion. You must be intelligent enough to understand that people are wired up differently and along with their life experiences will have varying views on subjects. It doesn't make them idiots, people that talk utter crap or complete cretins as you tend to often suggest.

Others would be far more likely to consider your opinion if it was tempered and persuasive by intelligent debate.

See below. It was complete and utter ... you know what.

 

[Foxholer]

Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.

Ethan, you really don't seem able to stop insulting people rather than using reasoned debate....

There doesn't seem to be any actual 'insult' in Ethan's post!

...
Others would be far more likely to consider your opinion if it was tempered and persuasive by intelligent debate.

A far better statement imo!

Note: I not making any comment on the veracity (I seem to be using that word a lot these days!) of any of the opinions/statements involved!

 

[Ethan]

Here .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980. It says a small number 1% will lose out, but then sky news does say 75% will be better off.

http://news.sky.com/story/1684491/junior-doctors-are-wrong-to-strike-says-pm

Either way, still seems a good deal. What do they actually want out of the negotiations ?

I haven't heard Sky News on pay, but the Department of Health doesn't claim 75% will be better off. In fact, pay protection steps have to be put in to prevent large drops in pay for many.

 

[Hobbit]

You don't even understand the data. That shows a set of hours (M-F 0700-1900) currently paid at basic rate with overtime (all other hours) paid at 20-100%, changed to a much larger group of hours (M-F 0700-2100, Sat 0700-1700) paid at basic rate plus 13.5% and a much smaller set paid at 33-50%. The overall effect is not an increase.

You are comparing 20-100 with 33-50 and concluding the latter is a big increase.

I will tell the Beeb their data is accurate but some people seem to be incapable of understanding it.

Don't I? Truthfully, I just couldn't be bothered reading it too much, but I did note the different spread of hours in each graph and expected that it probably came out as cost neutral.

Can you explain why one junior doctor on breakfast tv couldn't articulate why it was a poor deal whilst another could articulate the deal very well and said he was happy with it?

Also, please remember that as a moderator others who may find your posts offensive can't put you on ignore. Surely, you could be a little more temperate and considerate, knowing you can't be put on ignore. Alternatively, just carry on abusing the privilege you have.

 

[Ethan]

Don't I? Truthfully, I just couldn't be bothered reading it too much, but I did note the different spread of hours in each graph and expected that it probably came out as cost neutral.

Can you explain why one junior doctor on breakfast tv couldn't articulate why it was a poor deal whilst another could articulate the deal very well and said he was happy with it?

Also, please remember that as a moderator others who may find your posts offensive can't put you on ignore. Surely, you could be a little more temperate and considerate, knowing you can't be put on ignore. Alternatively, just carry on abusing the privilege you have.

There have been many junior doctors interviewed on all sorts of programmes. I have only seen a few of them. Most are just everyday regular doctors and not involved with the negotiations and not proficient in the technical details. They know they feel exhausted and their work/life balance is a disaster and don't want it getting worse.

One of the doctors featured prominently in the anti-strike side has a business offering consulting and strategy services. I guess he feels he is more likely to be hired by the DH and Trusts than by the BMA.

The debate is much more detailed on some medical websites which are accessible by doctors only. It is quite striking how strong feelings are across the profession including GPs and Consultants. There has been a growing exodus of juniors to Oz and Canads in recent years and early reports on application numbers for August suggest this could get a lot worse, and then staffing A&E and other jobs becomes impossible. I said in a previous post this was an existential crisis and was mocked for it. Let's revisit that question in August and beyond.

 

[HowlingGale]

I haven't heard Sky News on pay, but the Department of Health doesn't claim 75% will be better off. In fact, pay protection steps have to be put in to prevent large drops in pay for many.

Yup I was moved to 'pay protection' which resulted in a 5k pay drop. Yes I work for the NHS and in the last two years I've lost 5k off my pay purely down to 'changes'.

I'm afraid it's now time for the doctors to take their turn. 7 day working is prevalent everywhere without any mark-up in pay. I know doctors have to work hard but I know a lot of people who work just as hard 7 days a week for nowhere near the figures you keep quoting. Suck it up...

 

[Bunkermagnet]

All I know is that when my mother was in hospital 3 months ago, she needed some extra things to help ease her bed sore pains, but because it was a Sunday pm, the stores were closed and she had to wait until 9 am on Monday. How is that 21st Century health care? It's about time our hospitals worked 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week with all staff (obviously more of them) doing shift patterns. You never know, waiting lists might actually drop as a result.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Yup I was moved to 'pay protection' which resulted in a 5k pay drop. Yes I work for the NHS and in the last two years I've lost 5k off my pay purely down to 'changes'.

I'm afraid it's now time for the doctors to take their turn. 7 day working is prevalent everywhere without any mark-up in pay. I know doctors have to work hard but I know a lot of people who work just as hard 7 days a week for nowhere near the figures you keep quoting. Suck it up...

Yep, good point, everyone should race to the bottom.
In fact, i know people who work on minimum wage. Therefore you don't mind if everyone does, correct?

 

[Kellfire]

All I know is that when my mother was in hospital 3 months ago, she needed some extra things to help ease her bed sore pains, but because it was a Sunday pm, the stores were closed and she had to wait until 9 am on Monday. How is that 21st Century health care? It's about time our hospitals worked 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week with all staff (obviously more of them) doing shift patterns. You never know, waiting lists might actually drop as a result.

Where do we find these staff and what do we pay them with?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Where do we find these staff and what do we pay them with?

To start with you could ban all new doctors and consultants from anything other than NHS work for 10 years or so after qualifying. Nothing is worse than being told by a consultant that you wil go on a waiting list which will be about 6 months but he could do it privately next thursday.
If we have money to give to India and China as aid, we can afford more nurses etc.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

To start with you could ban all new doctors and consultants from anything other than NHS work for 10 years or so after qualifying. Nothing is worse than being told by a consultant that you wil go on a waiting list which will be about 6 months but he could do it privately next thursday.
If we have money to give to India and China as aid, we can afford more nurses etc.

So the private healthcare industries stops working, and stops paying the NHS money for all of the services/staff they use....

Also, money to India and China has absolutely nothing to do with the NHS

 

[Berger]

There have been many junior doctors interviewed on all sorts of programmes. I have only seen a few of them. Most are just everyday regular doctors and not involved with the negotiations and not proficient in the technical details. They know they feel exhausted and their work/life balance is a disaster and don't want it getting worse.

One of the doctors featured prominently in the anti-strike side has a business offering consulting and strategy services. I guess he feels he is more likely to be hired by the DH and Trusts than by the BMA.

The debate is much more detailed on some medical websites which are accessible by doctors only. It is quite striking how strong feelings are across the profession including GPs and Consultants. There has been a growing exodus of juniors to Oz and Canads in recent years and early reports on application numbers for August suggest this could get a lot worse, and then staffing A&E and other jobs becomes impossible. I said in a previous post this was an existential crisis and was mocked for it. Let's revisit that question in August and beyond.

But surely the government are doing all in their power to keep doctors happy to stop them leaving the UK?! Oh wait, I think I've got doctors mixed up with bankers.

Who cares if the people who help save lives are being run into the ground?!

 

[Hobbit]

Where do we find these staff and what do we pay them with?

Is it ok for someone to suffer or should a hospital be truly able to deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients? Note, I didn't advocate 24/7 for outpatient appointments.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Is it ok for someone to suffer or should a hospital be truly able to deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients? Note, I didn't advocate 24/7 for outpatient appointments.

When does a hospital not deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

When does a hospital not deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients?

When an inpatient needs something that the stores have, but the stores are shut because it's the weekend.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

So the private healthcare industries stops working, and stops paying the NHS money for all of the services/staff they use....

Also, money to India and China has absolutely nothing to do with the NHS

Why should private healthcare use NHS staff?
If China and India can afford space programs and the like, they don't need our aid we give them..so we would have more money to then spend on our NHS.

 

[HowlingGale]

Yep, good point, everyone should race to the bottom.
In fact, i know people who work on minimum wage. Therefore you don't mind if everyone does, correct?

Where have you been for the last 8 years? The NHS has been crippled because of overspending. I know lots of people who have taken a hit in pay. Private and public sector.

Live in the real world. The one where we must make sacrifices in order to continue our way of life.