Do you have evidence to support this or is it just hearsay?
Jimmy Carr - The End?
- Thread starter Swango1980
- Start date
HampshireHog
Assistant Pro
I’ll start by saying I like TV personality Jimmy Carr, not a fan of his Stand Up.
Should he apologise? No, it would be lie, or that half arsed sorry if anyone was offended. He knew the reaction it would provoke and is prepared for the infamy, publicity and consequence.
Was I personally offended? I don’t have a foot in any of the 3 groups mentioned so no. 100% I find it distasteful and not something I personally think should be joked about.
The issue with I have with jokes around atrocities like genocide, rape, domestic violence is it diminishes the heinousness of that crime. It desensitises us to it, and for some legitimises it.
I can be fairly sure if the punchline to a joke was Grenfell Victims or Hillsborough Victims rather than Gypsy’s, this forum would be more offended/outraged.
Should he apologise? No, it would be lie, or that half arsed sorry if anyone was offended. He knew the reaction it would provoke and is prepared for the infamy, publicity and consequence.
Was I personally offended? I don’t have a foot in any of the 3 groups mentioned so no. 100% I find it distasteful and not something I personally think should be joked about.
The issue with I have with jokes around atrocities like genocide, rape, domestic violence is it diminishes the heinousness of that crime. It desensitises us to it, and for some legitimises it.
I can be fairly sure if the punchline to a joke was Grenfell Victims or Hillsborough Victims rather than Gypsy’s, this forum would be more offended/outraged.
greenone
Active member
And that's the point. Who has the right to tell someone else what is funny or acceptable? If you dont like it turn it off.
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
Is it possible to discuss the subject without using examples that others might find offensive?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I never said it was funny.
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
I’m not sure it is possible when we are discussing what is or isn’t considered offensive Phil.
Given that plenty here don’t seem to have an issue with using the attempted extermination of a race by one of the most odious human beings ever to walk the face the face of the planet as a subject for humour, I’m wondering what could possibly be considered offensive?
But I’m fairly sure if I posted one of the memes I’ve been sent relating to Kurt Zouma’s cat I’d find out…
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Are you living in another world, you’re posting on a forum that is governed by rules of what you can and can’t say and moderatored to the point they can decide what is funny or acceptable.
It’s a cliche to say no one has the right to tell someone else what is funny or acceptable, we live in a civilised democracy governed by laws and saying the “wrong” thing in public has consequences.
But isn’t that what the debate is all about, discussing something some of us find extremely offensive? It’s ok to discuss that but not ok to bring up comparable examples… is that a level playing field?
greenone
Active member
and that is fair enough. I agreed to those rules when i signed up. How is that different to Anyone who wants watch a Jimmy Carr stand routine that is called his dark material. The clue is in the name.
You been following what's been going on in Westminster for the last few years?
RichA
Well-known member
I think he's referring to a post that has been deleted. It wasn't adding to the debate, just an attempt at humour including a tired stereotype.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I like Jimmy Carr, yes he is edgey, I also thought his joke about the Holocaust was too far, I believe there is nothing funny about the Holocaust and he or anyone else should not make jokes about it. I also agree some people have no issue with the joke.
The fact is, lots and lots of people are now aware of the “joke” and never saw the show, therefore, saying “anyone who doesn’t like it can switch it off” is irrelevant and he will suffer the backlash, whether that’s in bookings or TV Contracts remains to be seen. People who are in positions of authorities, ie, head of venues or CEO’s of Companies etc now have the power to block or ban Jimmy Carr.
You only have to look at Jim Davidson and how is career nose dived because of his right to say what he wanted.
Good luck to anyone who believes you can say what you like, just so long as you/they understand there may be consequences.
I saw the post before it was deleted, and I get what your saying. But if we’re having an almost open house on the material, why delete a lame joke that was nowhere as offensive as carr’s material.
ExRabbit
Club Champion
The poll has no option for me.
My vote: Don't like him, don't find him funny, he overstepped the mark - but not interested in the cancel culture.
Also hated the 'joke'.
Visited this place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natzweiler-Struthof_concentration_camp quite a few years ago when we came across it on one of our European camping holidays. Just driving through the mountains, drove past and turned round because we thought we should see what we had been told about.
Surprisingly it was one of the most peaceful places I have ever been to.
And the most harrowing.
My vote: Don't like him, don't find him funny, he overstepped the mark - but not interested in the cancel culture.
Also hated the 'joke'.
Visited this place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natzweiler-Struthof_concentration_camp quite a few years ago when we came across it on one of our European camping holidays. Just driving through the mountains, drove past and turned round because we thought we should see what we had been told about.
Surprisingly it was one of the most peaceful places I have ever been to.
And the most harrowing.
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
Brian , I have to keep an eye on how the forum affects GM’s public image.
So the choices are to either just close the thread or to ask people to refrain from examples of extreme “humour” that they know will offend.
Welcome to my world ?
Going off at a tangent, a by-product of this thread, for me, is education. Reading up just how much ethnic cleansing the Germans practiced. The number 6 million Jews is often quoted, and although I was aware that other groups had also been targeted I didn’t know how many. A further 5 million were killed, including 500,000 Eastern European gypsies.
But it didn’t end there. The Russians continued the cleansing till 1956.
Like so many, we’ve visited several historical sites. The camps are as you’ve seen in many photographs and film pieces, and evoke the thoughts you would expect… and then some. But the sites where it really hits home for us are where our world collides with the history. The village in France that is deserted following the massacre of over 600 inhabitants - it’s eerie. The square in the Jewish Quarter in Rome where over 2,100 people were rounded up and sent off to the camps - only 4 survived. And the conversations with the grandfather, Jewish, of our Spanish teacher, the only survivor from his family and friends of the Polish uprising in Warsaw.
Each to their own but, for me, it’s not a subject for jokes.
But it didn’t end there. The Russians continued the cleansing till 1956.
Like so many, we’ve visited several historical sites. The camps are as you’ve seen in many photographs and film pieces, and evoke the thoughts you would expect… and then some. But the sites where it really hits home for us are where our world collides with the history. The village in France that is deserted following the massacre of over 600 inhabitants - it’s eerie. The square in the Jewish Quarter in Rome where over 2,100 people were rounded up and sent off to the camps - only 4 survived. And the conversations with the grandfather, Jewish, of our Spanish teacher, the only survivor from his family and friends of the Polish uprising in Warsaw.
Each to their own but, for me, it’s not a subject for jokes.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Interestingly, the fact he brought up the subject instigated discussions in the public like this, including people researching what actually happened and educating themselves. Maybe an unintended consequence, but at least a positive for those that think he shouldn't have raised the subject in the 1st place?
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
You really don’t get it, do you? No one in their right mind has an issue with the subject being raised or people being educated about it; the issue is using it to get a cheap laugh.
To try and claim that there is a positive in this smacks of a drowning man grabbing desperately for a life belt.
RichA
Well-known member
Not knocking your point, but Jimmy Carr has previously said that he writes jokes to make people laugh, not to make them think.
If it makes people think, then something good might come out of it. Unfortunately, it's made other people think that trotting out old stereotyping jokes is a justified freedom of speech thing.
Don Barzini
Assistant Pro
Any comedian who apologises for a joke ends up worse off in my opinion as they lose credibility. In this situation, if he apologised it would just be about trying to quell the hysterical masses and would be disingenuous. Knowing the way he is, he won't apologise - and I believe has already said he won't anyway. So good on him.
What first surprised me about this story when it broke was the timing of it. His Dark Material was released over a month ago and no-one commented until a few days ago. Who was the person or group who suddenly decided to kick up a fuss about it, when it was already out there for several weeks? Normally these things are picked up immediately, so the delay surprised me.
I had actually watched His Dark Materials when it was first released. I didn't take particular notice of the joke at the time - it was just one in a long line of....well.....dark material. I think he's made worse jokes in the past to be honest.
To me, the joke was funny. Not because I was thinking "Ha ha yes wasn't it good that gypsies were killed in the Holocaust" - which I believe is how most people who are upset about it seem to have interpreted it. But when most of us think of the Holocaust we immediately think "Jews" and don't think of the other groups it affected. So he was joking that the bits we don't think about must therefore be "the good stuff". Made me chuckle and made me think.
As I've always said, humour is entirely subjective. Many will no doubt think that my interpretation of the joke isn't funny. Fine. That's how comedy works.
And as someone (may have been Ricky Gervais...?) once said "Just because you're offended, it doesn't mean you're right."
What first surprised me about this story when it broke was the timing of it. His Dark Material was released over a month ago and no-one commented until a few days ago. Who was the person or group who suddenly decided to kick up a fuss about it, when it was already out there for several weeks? Normally these things are picked up immediately, so the delay surprised me.
I had actually watched His Dark Materials when it was first released. I didn't take particular notice of the joke at the time - it was just one in a long line of....well.....dark material. I think he's made worse jokes in the past to be honest.
To me, the joke was funny. Not because I was thinking "Ha ha yes wasn't it good that gypsies were killed in the Holocaust" - which I believe is how most people who are upset about it seem to have interpreted it. But when most of us think of the Holocaust we immediately think "Jews" and don't think of the other groups it affected. So he was joking that the bits we don't think about must therefore be "the good stuff". Made me chuckle and made me think.
As I've always said, humour is entirely subjective. Many will no doubt think that my interpretation of the joke isn't funny. Fine. That's how comedy works.
And as someone (may have been Ricky Gervais...?) once said "Just because you're offended, it doesn't mean you're right."
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Swango1980
Well-known member
Actually, I think it is you that doesn't get it (from the other sides perspective). This is a conversation about the ethics on using controversial subjects in comedy. I completely get that many will not find it funny. The question is, does that therefore make it wrong? The fact that you think it is wrong does not give you the right to say that people who disagree with you "just don't get it". Because, as I demonstrated, I can just say exactly the same thing back to you.
As I have mentioned, Carr and other comedians make jokes about disabilities, homosexuality, aids, cancer, rape, religion, race, etc. Do you find any of those jokes funny, or should all those topics be taken off the table? I bet there are plenty of people that would not laugh at one or more of those topics, but laughed at his holocaust joke. And, not for one second did they laugh because they think the holocaust was funny. That was clearly NOT the point of the joke.
I bet most people know the holocaust was horrendous, and are aware is was the mass extermination of Jewish people by the Nazis. However, unless you have educated yourself further, I bet less people realised that other groups were killed. That was the twist of the joke. Not that the extermination of the travelling community was a good thing, but the absurdity of putting a positive spin on it, knowing it is far from being positive. I am sure these comedians are more interested in the shocked groans rather than just belly laughs, that's what highlights how horrific these things really are.
I suspect people in society simply feel guilt if they laugh at any horrible subject, that they somehow feel that by laughing, it endorses it. However, if we just ask comedians not to make jokes around sensitive subjects, is it not just another method of forgetting about those incidents from history for many people? I know some have educated themselves about the holocaust, but many will have only really had any education on is at school (maybe), and forgotten about most of it. Many are not the type to watch documentaries or read books. So, when a comedian raises such a subject, it puts it in the forefront of people's minds. Some may even go and fo a bit of research afterwards to see why a joke was deemed so edgy.
And, why stop at stand up routines. What about movies? Should we ban all movies about sensitive subjects, especially if they are comedies or inaccurate? After all, they are also part of the entertainment industry, and made to make money.
For me, my first thought would always be "is this person being literal in their absurd views on a bad event". If they are, then maybe there is an argument that it is "hate speech" and they should suffer the consequences. Although, I'd imagine the person would only have a very small following anyway, and not be mainstream. If not, and it is clear many find the absurdness in what they say funny (the whole point of the joke), then I have no issue. It may or may not be to my tastes, but that's fine. If I enjoy the comedian, I'll watch them on TV or book a ticket. If I don't, I'll not go to their show or watch them on TV.
I'm sure many of us have said terrible things about horrible subjects in our past to families and friends. However, hopefully the context of it wasn't you found the topic literally funny, but the fact the opposite was true was what brought the amusement to it. The "I can't believe you said that" reaction, but knowing you did it for comedic effect rather than airing your warped views. Some comedians simply do that publicly rather than within their own homes. And, the audience, by and large, get the context. Sadly, there are others that forget about context, and simply judge whether the words / topic are acceptable or not
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