Is this a hole in one?

[Maninblack4612]

If less than half the ball is over the perimeter of the hole it won't drop when the flag is removed. If it does drop then the laws of physics say that more than half the ball was inside the perimeter. If this is the case, part of the ball MUST be below the surface, even if its only ½ a millemetre. There's no way that removing the flag can move the ball nearer the hole.

 

[rulefan]

It's a poor ruling. The rule should state that the ball is replaced in the exact position, if it topples in then it is holed..... IMHO.

Why should 14.2e not apply?

14.2e. What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If you try to replace your ball but it does not stay on its original spot, you must try a second time.
If your ball again does not stay on that spot, you must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where it will stay at rest

 

[Orikoru]

What happened when the flag was straightened up? Did it drop or not? The answer would be revealed after that.

Exactly this - nudge the pin back straight and if the ball falls in it's holed, if it stays up on the edge then it ain't.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Why should 14.2e not apply?

14.2e. What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If you try to replace your ball but it does not stay on its original spot, you must try a second time.
If your ball again does not stay on that spot, you must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where it will stay at rest

If you read my post you'll see that I'm not arguing against the outcome of the rule, I'm saying it's a poor rule and it should be changed. It's blatantly obvious that the ball would have dropped in if the flag was centred.

 

[Maninblack4612]

If you read my post you'll see that I'm not arguing against the outcome of the rule, I'm saying it's a poor rule and it should be changed. It's blatantly obvious that the ball would have dropped in if the flag was centred.

I agree. See #26

 

[Orikoru]

If less than half the ball is over the perimeter of the hole it won't drop when the flag is removed. If it does drop then the laws of physics say that more than half the ball was inside the perimeter. If this is the case, part of the ball MUST be below the surface, even if its only ½ a millemetre. There's no way that removing the flag can move the ball nearer the hole.

This was my thinking as well. Logically speaking, if the ball drops when you re-centre the flag then part of must have been below the surface or else it wouldn't drop - it's physics. If none of it is below the surface, it doesn't drop.

 

[theoneandonly]

This was my thinking as well. Logically speaking, if the ball drops when you re-centre the flag then part of must have been below the surface or else it wouldn't drop - it's physics. If none of it is below the surface, it doesn't drop.

Or the hole was cut on a slope

 

[Slab]

If you read my post you'll see that I'm not arguing against the outcome of the rule, I'm saying it's a poor rule and it should be changed. It's blatantly obvious that the ball would have dropped in if the flag was centred.

Doesn't that depend on how the ball got to its position at rest we see in the pic?
Maybe with a centered flagstick it would actually bounce clear and stop 20' away

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Doesn't that depend on how the ball got to its position at rest we see in the pic?
Maybe with a centered flagstick it would actually bounce clear and stop 20' away

If the ball was 20ft away then unlikely anyone would be claiming it's a hole in one ?

 

[Slab]

If the ball was 20ft away then unlikely anyone would be claiming it's a hole in one ?

Agreed... But I'm not the one saying it would've definitely dropped if the stick was centered
Who knows where it might have come to rest

 

[Orikoru]

Agreed... But I'm not the one saying it would've definitely dropped if the stick was centered
Who knows where it might have come to rest

Why do you need the whatifery? It is what it is, the ball has ended up as you see it. Straighten the flagstick and it drops. Simple as.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why do you need the whatifery? It is what it is, the ball has ended up as you see it. Straighten the flagstick and it drops. Simple as.

The simple thing is the rules

The ball is not the hole when it comes to rest , it hasn’t broken the putting surface , move the flag and then place on the edge

 

[Orikoru]

The simple thing is the rules

The ball is not the hole when it comes to rest , it hasn’t broken the putting surface , move the flag and then place on the edge

We've covered this - if straightening the flagstick causes it to fall in the hole, then part of the ball must have been below the surface or it wouldn't drop. Ergo it is holed.

 

[Tashyboy]

I wouldn't as it's Covid rules, but in normal times I'd use my hand.

So how would you remove the flag?

I don’t think it would need removing, pushing the flag stick in the opposite direction with owt other than your hand would give you an answer Re whether the ball drops or not.
Hypothetically and this is not an opinion it’s a thought. Say it’s not an hole in one the ball needs to be struck again. but how?
The ball is resting against the flag. So it won’t drop unless the flag is moved or removed.
What happens if you mark your ball. Remove flag and the ball drops into the hole because your up against the marker. The only way the ball will not drop is if it is moved further back, left or right. Then your on for penalties for not placing your ball in the correct place. Unless your name ends in Reed. ??

 

[Tashyboy]

The question is “ Is this a hole in one”, but to take it a step further. What would you actually do if that happened to you or one of your PPs. ?

 

[Orikoru]

The question is “ Is this a hole in one”, but to take it a step further. What would you actually do if that happened to you or one of your PPs. ?

Having said what I've said, the one specifically in the photo actually looks like it would not drop if you move the stick, so that one probably isn't holed. You'd have to move the stick back and tap it in.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We've covered this - if straightening the flagstick causes it to fall in the hole, then part of the ball must have been below the surface or it wouldn't drop. Ergo it is holed.

What ?!

The ball comes to rest - it’s stops moving and the ball has not been holed

You can’t then make the ball move again so that it drops in the ball - it doesn’t matter if the flag stopped it from going in - thats just the rub of the green

Once the ball is at rest - shot over , it has not broken the plane of the putting surface as claimed

The rules are there - whether that’s a fair rule or not can be a debated but that ball in that picture has not been holed

 

[Orikoru]

What ?!

The ball comes to rest - it’s stops moving and the ball has not been holed

You can’t then make the ball move again so that it drops in the ball - it doesn’t matter if the flag stopped it from going in - thats just the rub of the green

Once the ball is at rest - shot over , it has not broken the plane of the putting surface as claimed

The rules are there - whether that’s a fair rule or not can be a debated but that ball in that picture has not been holed

If you're talking about the picture in the OP - I'd agree that doesn't look holed. I'm just talking generally though, the rules say if any part of the ball is below the surface it's holed, correct? If that's the case it would drop in the hole as soon as you straightened the flag wouldn't it. Simple physics. The one in the picture, I don't think it would drop, it looks like it would stay where it is if you straighten the flag.

I'm not really arguing with the rule although it's a bit wordy - I'm just saying in real world application you'll know if the balls below the surface or not by what happens when you straighten the flag.

 

[Tashyboy]

Play by the rules, what other option is there?

Continued) a ball in Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e: The player must place a ball on the spot where the ball dropped. ... If the ball placed a second time also does not stay on that spot, the player must place a ball on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest, subject to the limits in Rule 14.2e.

So if the ball does not stay on its original spot after being marked it’s because it fell in the hole. Like as been said, it’s the rules but it feels like it has gone to VAR.

 

[Slab]

Why do you need the whatifery? It is what it is, the ball has ended up as you see it. Straighten the flagstick and it drops. Simple as.

Was this meant for d4s? (I didn't suggest what would've happened to the ball if the flag was centered)