Is it fair that a ladies play from red and men white in the same competition?

[freddielong]

If you are not playing the same card you are not playing the same course so you cannot compare the scores, ridiculous.

 

[doublebogey7]

If you are not playing the same card you are not playing the same course so you cannot compare the scores, ridiculous.

By that logic there would be no handicaps competitions either.

 

[rulefan]

The SSS for any colour of tees is assessed for the people normally playing it. It is assessed on the basis of gender because the dominant factor in rating is length and ladies (of an equivalent standard) are generally shorter hitters than men. So two ratings are made.
A standard scratch male player will play to the SSS for men. A standard female scratch player will play to the SSS for women.

So, depending on the SSS, strokes will be adjusted to compensate.
eg
If the man has to play to as SSS of 74 but the woman to an SSS of 72, the man will be given 2 strokes.
If the man has to play to as SSS of 71 but the woman to an SSS of 72, the woman will be given 1 stroke.

A similar principle comes in when Slope is introduced. (USGA Rating)
Tees are also rated for the bogey (20 cap) player and the effective relative difficulty is termed the slope. If the relative difficulty for the 20 capper is 4 strokes more than the scratch player, their handicap will be increased by 4. A 10 capper would get 2.
This applies to both genders.

NB For the experts, the above paragraph is of course a simplification (supposedly) but should indicate the principle.

 

[freddielong]

By that logic there would be no handicaps competitions either.

Why ? I don't get your logic

Different tees = different course

Different handicaps are a way of equaling out the difference in handicap of people playing the same course.

 

[rulefan]

From the CONGU Quick Guide for Secretaries.

Mixed events and mixed teesMen and women both have their handicaps regulated by the same CONGU® rules, although theyplay from different tees and may have a different standard scratch score (SSS). When a competitionis open to both men and women, for the game to be fair the handicap allowances have to beadjusted to allow for the difference in SSS between the two courses.
To increase enjoyment of the game, it is becoming more common for competitors to play fromdifferent sets of tees. For example, if there is a long carry that many high handicap men cannotmake, then, for example, category 4 players may play from more forward tees.

 Medal – the difference in SSS is added to the handicap allowance of the players whose SSSis higher. (In mixed events, this is usually the women’s SSS.) This is for the competitionresult only, not for handicapping.

 Stableford –it is the relationship between the par and SSS that matters. For example, if thedifference between par and SSS for men is the same as that for women – even if the par isdifferent for both, then there is no handicap allowance adjustment. It is recommended thatmen and women use their own stroke indexes.

 Par (bogey) – as in stableford competitions, it is the relationship between the par and SSS ofthe groups of competitors playing that is relevant.

ï‚· Match play - the player with the higher SSS should add the difference between SSSs to theirhandicap before any calculation of shots received.

The examples above show how the handicap allowances need to be adjusted to work out thewinners of such competitions but you and your handicap committee need to consider how the CSSshould be calculated for mixed competitions or when, in single gender competitions, players playfrom different tees (eg, from forward tees as well as tiger tees).
CONGU ® recommends that you usea Single CSS Adjustment (your software should be able to calculate this for you). By doing this thechange in CSS from different tees will be the same for all players. The Single CSS Adjustment takesinto account the performance of all players relative to their respective buffer zones.

See Appendix O in the Manual for more detail and examples.

 

[louise_a]

Mens handicaps are based on the SSS from the White tees, Ladies on the SSS from the Red tees, so an adjustment is made for the difference. I don't see why people have a problem with this.

 

[rulefan]

Mens handicaps are based on the SSS from the White tees, Ladies on the SSS from the Red tees, so an adjustment is made for the difference. I don't see why people have a problem with this.

Men's handicaps are based on the SSS of all courses/tees rated for men that they have played in competition.
Ladies' handicaps are based on the SSS of all courses/tees rated for ladies that they have played​ in competition.

 

[Foxholer]

We've had some mixed comps recently, just seems odd that ladies play from red and men from white in the joint competition. I assume someones worked out its fair, but is it? Some male players are feeling a little disgruntled as one lady has won a few times off a high handicap of around 30.

Yes it is!

But there'll always be whingers!

 

[FairwayDodger]

When we had our meet at Nairn Karen gave us guys a 2 shots i think for the difference between the white SSS and the Red Tees.

we didn't mind getting courtesy shots

I'm always happy to give shots, where appropriate, in these situations. Alternatively, if I should be receiving an adjustment I usually ask for it but it's not always forthcoming! :rofl:

 

[doublebogey7]

Why ? I don't get your logic

Different tees = different course

Different handicaps are a way of equaling out the difference in handicap of people playing the same course.

Not sure the highlighted passage makes any sence though I think I get what you are trying to say but, they are not, handicaps are a way of equaling out a players abilities on a variety of courses. Otherwise there would be no need for SSS.

 

[freddielong]

Not sure the highlighted passage makes any sence though I think I get what you are trying to say but, they are not, handicaps are a way of equaling out a players abilities on a variety of courses. Otherwise there would be no need for SSS.

Does a 67 nett on course A beat a 66 on course B

 

[Tashyboy]

Played in a mixed doubles comp and my partner although lovely was Rammel. Every long shot had to be hit with a driver not just the tee but fairways and rough. It normally went 25 yds. Our opponents female player played off 30 ish and was nearer 16. They won the comp with 43 points with best score for the hole. She contributed 40 points. Her handicap was the problem, not the fact she was playing off reds. That aside she was lovely, he was a self centred look at me numpty.
Dont know what the female term for bandit is, but I don't really blame her. She had been playing golf for about nine months and having lessons for all that time she was good very good. The people that have been giving her lessons and advice are the ones that for me were questionable. Women playing off reds for me is not questionable.

 

[doublebogey7]

Does a 67 nett on course A beat a 66 on course B

That would depend on the SSS

 

[rulefan]

Does a 67 nett on course A beat a 66 on course B

What are the SSSs?

 

[scubascuba3]

Played in a mixed doubles comp and my partner although lovely was Rammel. Every long shot had to be hit with a driver not just the tee but fairways and rough. It normally went 25 yds. Our opponents female player played off 30 ish and was nearer 16. They won the comp with 43 points with best score for the hole. She contributed 40 points. Her handicap was the problem, not the fact she was playing off reds. That aside she was lovely, he was a self centred look at me numpty.
Dont know what the female term for bandit is, but I don't really blame her. She had been playing golf for about nine months and having lessons for all that time she was good very good. The people that have been giving her lessons and advice are the ones that for me were questionable. Women playing off reds for me is not questionable.

A bandit is a bandit is a bandit.


"The people that have been giving her lessons and advice are the ones that for me were questionable"

This seems odd....aren't we meant to be trying to improve like she is? rather than those guys trying to maintain a cushty handicap.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes it's very much fair and equal

You will always get "disgruntled members" - they are normally also the ones complaining about improving juniors , and accusing players who hit streaks of being a bandit basically just complaining as anyone that wins when they don't - the answer for me is - play better yourself

 

[freddielong]

What are the SSSs?

Course A 67 course B 66

 

[louise_a]

a nett 67 against a sss of 67 would be the same as a nett 66 against a sss of 66

 

[Tashyboy]

A bandit is a bandit is a bandit.


"The people that have been giving her lessons and advice are the ones that for me were questionable"

This seems odd....aren't we meant to be trying to improve like she is? rather than those guys trying to maintain a cushty handicap.

Totally agree with that, but it seemed to me that her "advisors" we're trying to maintain her cushty handicap. Including her PP who was her partner. When they won, he opened his envelope to see what he had won, M and S vouchers. She went straight to the toilet, came back and he had opened her envelope. It was the same, she was not best happy. My PP works at the course, a week or so later she collared me and said a few of the ladies had been " talking" re said winners and asked my opinion of her. I said she was "gorgeous 9/10" and left it at that.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Once upon a time they used to be courtesy shots given by the men in mixed matches. They were what they were called!

Now there is a handicap adjustment, not always shots given, and does indeed vary as to who gets them - we give one using yellow/reds and receive one when using white/red.possibly interestingly using red/red we would give 3.

As to the underlying equity, it's the same as playing a different club (handicap group) from different tees on the same course ie it's theoretically completely fair but practically there will always be aspects that make it less than equal. Arguably these factors are no more, or less than those that come into play between high and low handicaps all the time.

Well said Duncan,we all know that the OP would not be posting anything if the 'bandit' had a willie.