How many Divisions do you have

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Liverpoolphil

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They would if they felt the club was treating them unfairly, I would for certain. Do you really think the game would be as popular as it is without handicaps?

In my experience and that of the governing bodies is that low handicaps win more than their fair share, I understand that is not the perception amongst such players, but you have not presented any evidence to show otherwise.

I don't recall anyone saying to low handicappers "just play better" certainly not me.

With no choice but to pay it, is that fair????
So what’s the “fair” answer that allows everyone to compete

Providing divisions and gross prizes alongside handicap prizes will cover everyone will it not ?

The evidence we have from our competitions since WHS was implemented doesn’t suggest that the low handicaps win their fair share

The only comp won by a handicap of 5 and below so far is the gross club champs

Every handicap event has been won by the mid to high handicap - a combination of new golfers , returning golfers, juniors improving etc

And it’s all being done by high scores - peole going round the course under gross - down to 4 under are not even getting into the top ten

So if you are referring to the research you posted which was done by SGU it was looking at over overall vouchers and what percentage was won - it still showed that the majority was won by the mid to high handicapper

I’m struggling to understand why some don’t want to see the best golf rewarded - even if it’s just a small reward - it’s the whole idea of the sport , get the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots and when someone does they should get something ? No ?
 

fenwayrich

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Our men have 3 divisions on a Saturday, up to 9, 10-15 and 16 upwards, based on playing handicap. If it is a medal, there is a best gross prize of £15, but nothing if it's a Stableford. Seems totally unfair to me, but I was unable to pursuade my fellows on the Comps Committee to change it. On one Thursday a month we have a Medal, 2 divisions plus a Seniors off forward tees, again there is a gross prize.

A lot of our comps are Thursday and Sunday Stablefords where you can choose to play on the day. Recently these have been won by high handicappers almost exclusively, so we have introduced two divisions to try and make them more popular for lower handicappers.

In my opinion every competition with a decent number of entrants should offer a gross prize, even if it is modest, to doff the cap to people who have managed to get to a high level in this wonderful but extremely difficult game.
 

Backsticks

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And it’s all being done by high scores - peole going round the course under gross - down to 4 under are not even getting into the top ten
You do often hear scratchmen with this type of line - 'But Id have to shoot 7 under to beat that!'.
But their gross score is as irrelevant to a handicap comp the colour of their shirt, and best met with a shrug of 'so what'.
Maybe this is the element low men dont get - its not a gross competition !
 

Backsticks

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I’m struggling to understand why some don’t want to see the best golf rewarded - even if it’s just a small reward - it’s the whole idea of the sport , get the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots and when someone does they should get something ? No ?
No. Because that isnt the point of a handicap comp. Scratch cups, club championships, county competitions are there for that.
 

Foxholer

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You do often hear scratchmen with this type of line - 'But Id have to shoot 7 under to beat that!'.
But their gross score is as irrelevant to a handicap comp the colour of their shirt, and best met with a shrug of 'so what'.
Maybe this is the element low men dont get - its not a gross competition !
In most Handicap comps I played that had Gross prize(s), the 'Gross prize' contribution was optional. To simply extract cash from anyone who has zero likelihood/chance of winning is theft imo!
 
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So what’s the “fair” answer that allows everyone to compete

Providing divisions and gross prizes alongside handicap prizes will cover everyone will it not ?

The evidence we have from our competitions since WHS was implemented doesn’t suggest that the low handicaps win their fair share

The only comp won by a handicap of 5 and below so far is the gross club champs

Every handicap event has been won by the mid to high handicap - a combination of new golfers , returning golfers, juniors improving etc

And it’s all being done by high scores - peole going round the course under gross - down to 4 under are not even getting into the top ten

So if you are referring to the research you posted which was done by SGU it was looking at over overall vouchers and what percentage was won - it still showed that the majority was won by the mid to high handicapper

I’m struggling to understand why some don’t want to see the best golf rewarded - even if it’s just a small reward - it’s the whole idea of the sport , get the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots and when someone does they should get something ? No ?
And I'm struggling to understand how you think it's right that you wish to charge an entry fee to members who don't wish to take part in that competition. If the low boys wish to only play in gross competitions then I'm sure you're club would welcome you organising such events.
At my club the evidence shows that divisions would help the high handicappers, I am therefore not in favour of going in that direction because I believe the system should be balanced to reward the better players, assuming as I believe, that it is not possible to have a perfectly balanced handicap system.
If you have the evidence to show it is different at your club then I suggest you present it to your competition organising committee.
 
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Liverpoolphil

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And I'm struggling to understand how you think it's right that you wish to charge an entry fee to members who don't wish to take part in that competition.
?‍♂️ It’s all one competition with different prizes - the same as when it’s club champs and there are prizes for the handicap and the gross or when it’s seniors and they have prizes for over 55 and over 65 etc - it’s the same comp - the Monthly medal or board comp where there are multiple prizes

You enter the one comp and then can win some prizes depending on how well you do

If the low boys wish to only play in gross competitions then I'm sure you're club would welcome you organising such events.
At my club the evidence shows that divisions would help the high handicappers, I am therefore not in favour of going in that direction because I believe the system should be balanced to reward the better players, assuming as I believe, that it is not possible to have a perfectly balanced handicap system.
So if it’s not possible to have a perfectly balanced handicap system that means some people are being favoured are they not ? So why not add prizes to help balance it out ?

So do you want to reward the better players ?
If you have the evidence to show it is different at your club then I suggest you present it to your competition organising committee.
And our club are already doing divisions - it used to be three plus a gross prize but was stopped when golf went on it downturn - now the level of people playing comps has hugely increased a number of people have asked for it to return to three divisions and gross prize - and that’s from low mid and high handicap players
 
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?‍♂️ It’s all one competition with different prizes - the same as when it’s club champs and there are prizes for the handicap and the gross or when it’s seniors and they have prizes for over 55 and over 65 etc - it’s the same comp - the Monthly medal or board comp where there are multiple prizes

You enter the one comp and then can win some prizes depending on how well you do. I don't agree, every category of prize is effectively a different competition.



So if it’s not possible to have a perfectly balanced handicap system that means some people are being favoured are they not ? Yes, the low handicappers, as all the available research points to. So why not add prizes to help balance it out ? I did not say I was against them, I'm just been trying to say that they don't, at my club at least, meet your perceived need.

So do you want to reward the better players ? Never said anything else

And our club are already doing divisions - it used to be three plus a gross prize but was stopped when golf went on it downturn - now the level of people playing comps has hugely increased a number of people have asked for it to return to three divisions and gross prize - and that’s from low mid and high handicap players
I have answered your questions above and will now bow out as we're going round in circles.

Just a bit of advice, address this to your club, arguing on here will get you nowhere in obtaining that which you crave.
 
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Bdill93

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Bump...

So prior to the upcoming AGM the committee have put out an item for members to vote on in advance - DIVISIONS! FINALLY!

The proposal at our club is -

Div 1 - All Index's up to and including 18.0
Div 2 - 18.1 +

Whilst I would have liked it to be from 15ish, I'm not complaining about 18. Twice I've been beaten to win a comp on countback by someone off 30+ so this would at least put a stop to that.

Our Sunday roll up groups handicaps tend to max out around 22/23 and there's never any crazy scores there so this limit may even out the actual comps at the club!

Fingers crossed it gets voted in!
 

D-S

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Bump...

So prior to the upcoming AGM the committee have put out an item for members to vote on in advance - DIVISIONS! FINALLY!

The proposal at our club is -

Div 1 - All Index's up to and including 18.0
Div 2 - 18.1 +

Whilst I would have liked it to be from 15ish, I'm not complaining about 18. Twice I've been beaten to win a comp on countback by someone off 30+ so this would at least put a stop to that.

Our Sunday roll up groups handicaps tend to max out around 22/23 and there's never any crazy scores there so this limit may even out the actual comps at the club!

Fingers crossed it gets voted in!
I prefer the idea of using the software to divide the divisions equally across the entrants. The old way meant that theoretically you can be playing, for the same prizes, against a lot more or a lot less players dependent on who entered on the day.
 

Bdill93

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I prefer the idea of using the software to divide the divisions equally across the entrants. The old way meant that theoretically you can be playing, for the same prizes, against a lot more or a lot less players dependent on who entered on the day.
There has been some work behind the scenes looking at data etc. of comps played to get to the 18 number. It isn't just plucked out of nowhere.
 

Backsticks

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I prefer the idea of using the software to divide the divisions equally across the entrants. The old way meant that theoretically you can be playing, for the same prizes, against a lot more or a lot less players dependent on who entered on the day.
But if the justification for categories is imperfection of the handicap system that means the range of handicaps competing with each other is restricted for fairness, then you do pick divisions according to hc.

Ranging according to equal numbers of entrants, doesnt achieve that.
 

D-S

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But if the justification for categories is imperfection of the handicap system that means the range of handicaps competing with each other is restricted for fairness, then you do pick divisions according to hc.

Ranging according to equal numbers of entrants, doesnt achieve that.
Then if that is the way you want it, which is of course fine, then it would be good to have prize money amount split according to number of competitors per division.
 
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Then if that is the way you want it, which is of course fine, then it would be good to have prize money amount split according to number of competitors per division.
This is what I do for our 4 divisions, I try and balance the divisions but doesn't always work out.

we have 4 divisions because, for example we had a fun team comp Sunday to make the end of the captain's year teams of 4 full C.H waltzing coloured ball which counts double stableford points
winning team 173 points - hcp 24, 27, 11 &19
Runner Up 171 points - hcp 28, 22, 33 & 24
3rd 156 points - hcp 11, 15, 14, 12

I find when when me make comps inclusive of all handicaps (I say handicaps because I am not convinced they reflect the players ability) such a disparity so mush so that next time I will split it because its not fair on the rest of the field. and before I am criticised for M&H not making sure the hcps do reflect playing ability we are small team of volunteers try to manage 500+ playing members handicap, its just not possible.

In my view something EG forgot about when WHS was brought in, as the administration to for the team is disproportional,
 
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Medals…for prizes. Handicap limit of 28 for all comps for gents unless specified by Comps Committee.

<60 entered…1 division
60+ entered…2 divisions

If two divisions

Div 1..up to 14
Div 2…15-28

Divisions for any comp are subject to revision by Comps Committee.
 

Backsticks

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Then if that is the way you want it, which is of course fine, then it would be good to have prize money amount split according to number of competitors per division.
Yes, thats my point. There are two motivations that can define what way to divide them. It can be either, or both : golfing equality, and, prize money chance equality.

What system a club chooses depends on which of those aims it is addressing. If both, then you are correct. You define the handicap ranges according to the number of divisions you want, regardless of number of golfers in each, and then allocate fee/prizes according to the number in each.

If its simply to spread prizes, then according to numbers in each is fine. But that doesnt address the issue for those concerned about handicap ranges being too big, and so making those on an extreme feeling they are uncompetitive with those at the other end.
 
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Yes, thats my point. There are two motivations that can define what way to divide them. It can be either, or both : golfing equality, and, prize money chance equality.

What system a club chooses depends on which of those aims it is addressing. If both, then you are correct. You define the handicap ranges according to the number of divisions you want, regardless of number of golfers in each, and then allocate fee/prizes according to the number in each.

If its simply to spread prizes, then according to numbers in each is fine. But that doesnt address the issue for those concerned about handicap ranges being too big, and so making those on an extreme feeling they are uncompetitive with those at the other end.
Any fixed division cut though will be arbitary though. a 19 handicap player cannot be significantly any more likely to win a compoation than an 18 handicapped player any more than a 18 handicap or 17 handiap player. Seems much more sensible to base it on numbers playing as at least satisfies one criteria.

Be interested to know how they decide who wins any trophies involved or is it simply the overall winner.
 

banjofred

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My old course had 3 div, which I liked. I think it was up to 12, then 13-18?, the rest.......

Just more likely in my opinion for a higher handicapper to have a good round which a lower handicap person just can't match.

Opinions vary of course.......
 

Imurg

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Our divisions are, effectively, playing handicaps of up to 10, 11 to 20 and 21 up....
I'm not convinced they're quite right as Division 1 accounts for just over half the field....
Div 1 should probably go up to 8 to even things out.
All prizes are kept in the divisions so the winner of Div 1 wins a lot more than the others....
 

IanMcC

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Bump...

So prior to the upcoming AGM the committee have put out an item for members to vote on in advance - DIVISIONS! FINALLY!

The proposal at our club is -

Div 1 - All Index's up to and including 18.0
Div 2 - 18.1 +

Whilst I would have liked it to be from 15ish, I'm not complaining about 18. Twice I've been beaten to win a comp on countback by someone off 30+ so this would at least put a stop to that.

Our Sunday roll up groups handicaps tend to max out around 22/23 and there's never any crazy scores there so this limit may even out the actual comps at the club!

Fingers crossed it gets voted in!
This all seems fine, but may I suggest that the Divisional split is done by Playing Handicap, rather than Handicap Index.
It will cause less confusion overall. (But I am sure some of the more belligerent members on here would disagree. :))

For the record, for our weekend comp we have 2 Divisions. Up to 14 PH and 15 and above PH.
There is a best Gross prize also, which is equivalent to a divisional 2nd place financially.
 
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