How many Divisions do you have

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Liverpoolphil

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I can only think they will shrink and die under whs too. Its already the case in the US. They play maybe 3 comps a year and enter with either the full expectation (or intention) of a false handicap winning.

Hopefully a while away, and hopefully time to change.

I can definately say if I could play off the back tees without entering a comp, I wouldn't enter comps!
why would comps “shrink and die” surely people are also looking to play their best whenever they enter a comp ?

And there is also the chance to reduce their handicap ?

Unless some are only interested in winning
 

Slab

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The comp element would continue to thrive... but folks wont pay extra to play in them as the only equitable/ fully inclusive comp 'prize' on offer will be an individual H/C reduction
So comps carry on, but (outside the 'biggies') prizes dwindle and die (maybe not a bad thing)
 
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All our comps are one division. We have one board comp that is a medal that is split into 3 division and the overall winner for the board can be from any division.

Think all our board comps are limited to a 28 as a maximum handicap. Most boards comps this year have been won by 10 to 14 handicappers.
Year before I'd say 70% of the boards where won by CAT 1 players.
 

Springveldt

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I can't answer the main question, how many divisions, but the winning score, entry of 140-160, seems to be in the region of 38-39 points. That seems pretty fair, suggests accurate handicaps.
We have 3 divisions this year, first year it's been done in my 6 years here. Whoever is in charge of it hasn't updated HowDidIDo though as it only shows 1 divisions still.

D1 is to 9, D2 is 10-17 and D3 18+ (course handicap, not index)

For Saturday board comps each division winner gets £40, best gross in each division as well for £20 (think that may be Medal board comps only though, the email is a bit vague. Most board comps are Stableford.). You cannot win nett and gross, it's one or the other according to the email.
Monthly medal has £40 per division but no best gross.
Sweep is to top 5 regardless of division.

As you said, the winning scores so far have been fairly modest. Without divisions it wasn't uncommon to see low 40's win on a Saturday but with these changes I think high 30's might win some weeks in one or two of the divisions.

Course is par 70, CR 71.1, slope 139 for those that are interested.
 
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We don't have any division in the Men's section however the women's section has three because the lower handicaps we upset about being beaten by people playing off 40+ handicaps

However the club has introduced a new Rule that to be included in competition results from next year you must have at least 10 active cards, this was to stop people whom had got a strange increase in handicap due to WHS maintaining a high handicap especially in knockouts !!

Our major comps are both handicap stableford handicap and a gross competition both being board comps.

If WHS was implemented as i believe it was intended where every time you play you submit a card peoples handicaps would be a better representation of their skill and competitions results would be closer, obviously you are always going to get the person who's handicap is coming down who shoots in the 40's but if they submitted cards all the time that is more likely to happen in a casual round than in a comp
 
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I have an idea then - shall we make fair and square on everyone and make it so the person who has scored the less wins - so the winner is the best with the best ability on the day

That’s fair isn’t it ? Judging on ability

So one comp , one division, the person who goes round in the lowest wins
But that is exactly what backsticks is saying, let those that wish to compete for the gross prize pay and enter that competition, let everyone else enter and pay for the net prize. Surely that is fairest.
If though you think golf clubs would continue to thrive without any net competitions, then you are living in the clouds.
 

Backsticks

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I have an idea then - shall we make fair and square on everyone and make it so the person who has scored the less wins - so the winner is the best with the best ability on the day

That’s fair isn’t it ? Judging on ability

So one comp , one division, the person who goes round in the lowest wins
No thats not what people want, and presumably you know that well too. A great part of the success of golf is that it can be very well handicapped, allowing all abilities to compete with each other with a fair chance of winning on a given day for all players.
Or, you are agreeing with me. Have your gross, lowest shots wins competition. That will interest less than 5% of amateur golfers though.
And let the remaining 95% have their handicapped competitions.
 

Lord Tyrion

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But that is exactly what backsticks is saying, let those that wish to compete for the gross prize pay and enter that competition, let everyone else enter and pay for the net prize. Surely that is fairest.
If though you think golf clubs would continue to thrive without any net competitions, then you are living in the clouds.
Best gross is similar to longest drive sweeps. Only relevant to a small handful on the day.
 
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Liverpoolphil

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But that is exactly what backsticks is saying, let those that wish to compete for the gross prize pay and enter that competition, let everyone else enter and pay for the net prize. Surely that is fairest.
If though you think golf clubs would continue to thrive without any net competitions, then you are living in the clouds.
No I’m saying let just get rid of handicap prizes and just have prizes for who plays the best golf on the day - surely that’s the fairest way is it not ?
No thats not what people want, and presumably you know that well too. A great part of the success of golf is that it can be very well handicapped, allowing all abilities to compete with each other with a fair chance of winning on a given day for all players.
Or, you are agreeing with me. Have your gross, lowest shots wins competition. That will interest less than 5% of amateur golfers though.
And let the remaining 95% have their handicapped competitions.
But the handicap system isn’t giving people a “fair chance” because of many variables of the system - far from it hence why it’s recommend by governing bodies to create divisions to make it a bit more fairer

So you either adjust your divisions and then split the prizes up between handicap and gross and that’s fair for all
 

Slab

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Nice and simple how many divisions are your medals/Stablefords and also do you have a “best gross” prize

I know a few lads 5 HC below are getting a bit disillusioned going round in 39/38 points and some going under gross and not even getting into the top 10 of the division

Our winning scores used to be around 39/40 but since WHS and HC’s going up to 36 and 54 now if you don’t get over 40 points you have zero chance of being in the vouchers.

I think we should be changing divisions from 2 to 3 - up to 10 HC , 10 to 20 and then 20 above - also think there should be a small best gross voucher prize as well

So what’s it like at your place ? Seeing the same trend of high scores
If you already have two divisions how can you have zero chance because WHS handicaps have gone up to 36 & 54. Aren't those players in a different division to you? You'd only be competing against the Div One players? (i'm guessing max 18 ish)

Regardless; I think in your clubs case either increase Divisions from 2 to 3 as you suggest OR add a gross prize to the existing 2 division system. Both options will swing the odds towards the better players winning, but adding both options is probably overkill
 
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I think the cash prizes are the problem. It's now very possible to win a substantial sum, I'd bet easily into 4 figures, hunting pots at your own club. This was never an issue when the prize was 2 boxes of Titleist PTS 90s with the club crest on....
 
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Liverpoolphil

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If you already have two divisions how can you have zero chance because WHS handicaps have gone up to 36 & 54. Aren't those players in a different division to you? You'd only be competing against the Div One players? (i'm guessing max 18 ish)

Regardless; I think in your clubs case either increase Divisions from 2 to 3 as you suggest OR add a gross prize to the existing 2 division system. Both options will swing the odds towards the better players winning, but adding both options is probably overkill
We have two divisions - one goes to 20 and then 20 and above

the last couple of comps we have had the winner in both divisions is over 40 points

As you say it imo shoold be three

1-10
11-20
20 and above

That will give a fair split for the people we have playing comps

Along with that have asked for either a Gross OOM or a best gross prize equivalent of second place
 
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No I’m saying let just get rid of handicap prizes and just have prizes for who plays the best golf on the day - surely that’s the fairest way is it not ?
It is certainly fair, to those that would choose to enter such competitions, but doubt mine or your club would last very long if that is what was imposed. It is also not fair to those that wish to to play a form of competetive golf but to who your propsal would disenfranchise.
 
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[QUOTE But the handicap system isn’t giving people a “fair chance” because of many variables of the system - far from it hence why it’s recommend by governing bodies to create divisions to make it a bit more fairer

So you either adjust your divisions and then split the prizes up between handicap and gross and that’s fair for all[/QUOTE]

You imply here that the Governing bodies believe that the system ius unfair to certain players, where do they say that.

As far as I am aware they have said that clubs may create divisional prizes but I have not seen any of the governing bodies recommend that clubs do so. They have merely recognised the reality, emphasised by your posts, that some in the golfing community would not accept the truth of it no matter how much data is prosented to them.
 
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We have two divisions - one goes to 20 and then 20 and above

the last couple of comps we have had the winner in both divisions is over 40 points

As you say it imo shoold be three

1-10
11-20
20 and above

That will give a fair split for the people we have playing comps

Along with that have asked for either a Gross OOM or a best gross prize equivalent of second place
I have no problem with divisional prizes if that what is clubs wish to do, I just see no need for them.

So who would contribute to the prize fund for the Gross Prize??
 
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Liverpoolphil

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It is certainly fair, to those that would choose to enter such competitions, but doubt mine or your club would last very long if that is what was imposed. It is also not fair to those that wish to to play a form of competetive golf but to who your propsal would disenfranchise.
Why would clubs no longer last ?

Are you saying people would leave a club because they can’t win a competition there ?

Is it fair to scratch golfers when handicap golfers are getting 45 points - or is the answer “play better” ?

Why is it when lower handicap mentioned how hard it is to compete in comps they are told - just play better ?

Why does that only work one way ?
I have no problem with divisional prizes if that what is clubs wish to do, I just see no need for them.

So who would contribute to the prize fund for the Gross Prize??
Well as everyone is entitled to win the gross prize then it will come from the entrance fee of everyone
 
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Why would clubs no longer last ?

Are you saying people would leave a club because they can’t win a competition there ?

Is it fair to scratch golfers when handicap golfers are getting 45 points - or is the answer “play better” ?

Why is it when lower handicap mentioned how hard it is to compete in comps they are told - just play better ?

Why does that only work one way ?


Well as everyone is entitled to win the gross prize then it will come from the entrance fee of everyone
They would if they felt the club was treating them unfairly, I would for certain. Do you really think the game would be as popular as it is without handicaps?

In my experience and that of the governing bodies is that low handicaps win more than their fair share, I understand that is not the perception amongst such players, but you have not presented any evidence to show otherwise.

I don't recall anyone saying to low handicappers "just play better" certainly not me.

With no choice but to pay it, is that fair????
 

Foxholer

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We have two divisions - one goes to 20 and then 20 and above

the last couple of comps we have had the winner in both divisions is over 40 points

As you say it imo shoold be three

1-10
11-20
20 and above

That will give a fair split for the people we have playing comps

Along with that have asked for either a Gross OOM or a best gross prize equivalent of second place
1. You need more than 2 comps to be convincing imo, especially at this time of the season. Last year's, or even since WHS was implemented (and maybe compared to the pre-Congu figures) would be more convincing. It may be that the winners have actually been practicing over Winter, so it's just reward for those efforts!

2. This forum is not actually the place to be having a decisive discussion, as so much of the appropriate info required is missing. It's your committee that needs convincing - and that has the info required.
 
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