Have you asked for your own Handicap to be cut?

[Imurg]

But often people refuse to see the evidence because they refuse to accept that their belief could be wrong. Which is why, when I point out I can compete against Luke Donald, some people will still believe this is cobblers. But this it is not my opinion. It is a fact by definition.

So you honestly think that if you played Luke Donald - scratch - you would have even the minutest of chances of winning.........?

At best you are delusional, at worst you're in orbit in a completely different Galaxy to anyone else..

This isn't like a Non-League team taking on the Premier League leaders in the FA Cup and springing a surprise defeat on them in the last minute of extra time - this is akin to St Mary's School Under 12's playing Real Madrid.
If you've played off 12, at a rough guestimate, Luke would be in the region of 20 shots better than you, maybe more. The Gulf between 12 and Scratch isn't just 12 shots, the gulf between Scratch and Luke is wider than the gap between you and scratch.

 

[Region3]

This has been very interesting reading.

I'm for the handicapping system, but its' only my opinion and I'm not going to try to put an argument forward for it.

I'd just like to say that it's been refreshing to have someone putting their strong and slightly controversial opinion forward and reason the counter arguments without resorting to insults, which more threads nowadays seem to do.

Trying to think about other sports that are handicapped, horse racing springs to mind. I know it's the horses not the people that are handicapped but the idea is to allow different standards of horse to compete together.
Even some of the prestige non-handicap races have a form of handicapping in the form of weight for age penalties, or different weights for different sexes.

Also, wasn't one of the cars in the touring car championship handicapped by putting extra weight in a few years ago because it was that much better than the rest? Either a BMW or a Merc?

 

[MadAdey]

[h=2]com·pete[/h]   [kuhm-peet] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html Show IPA
verb (used without object), -pet·ed, -pet·ing.to strive to outdo another for acknowledgment, a prize,supremacy, profit, etc.; engage in a contest; vie: to compete in arace[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]; [/FONT]to[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]compete[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]in[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]business.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So yes that is what to compete means.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But let us be realistic here you would not put up much competition, would you?[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You have mentioned about someone giving the answer of cobblers. Well I have asked you the question about what else can we do instead of the handicapping system and I am still awaiting your answer. I do enjoy seeing a different point of view on here as too often you just get people jumping on a band wagon to gain popularity, when all they are doing is copying the point of view of someone else, as they are frightened to rock the boat.

So please back your opinion up with another idea to replace it with. As you can't just have every club competition being played off scratch as you would have nobody entering it.[/FONT]

​

 

[Philm]

So you honestly think that if you played Luke Donald - scratch - you would have even the minutest of chances of winning.........?

At best you are delusional, at worst you're in orbit in a completely different Galaxy to anyone else..

but the facts say that he does have the minutest chance of winning. a chance so small its nigh impossible to define. but a genuine chance none the less.

same chance as the fact that he could do something ridiculous like a hole a par3 or chip in a par 4. a small but very real chance.

its nice to see ProZach argue his point articulately and without lowering his tones against the naysayers.

i would certainly agree with the fact that the removal of the handicap system would change the club scene completely.

Phil

 

[Foxholer]

@Prozach. Or should the 'ch' be a 'k'?!

I think a huge proportion of what you are saying is complete twaddle - but I will defend your right to have an opinion.

I do believe that there are not enough Gross competitions in club golf. A previous club ran Medals in which the Nett and Gross (and 2s) were optional.

If you want Gross comps, enter any of the many Open Competitions that exist.

There has been a documented handicap system for Golf Matches for at least 250 years - and very probably a couple of hundred more - and it's purpose has been to provide an environment where players of differing abilities can compete in a match/competition and have equal chance to win. That match/competition does not, however, measure who is the best golfer(s) - simply who plays best against their perceived ability on the day. The measure for 'best golfer' (on the day) is still the one with the best Gross score (on the day). Both measures have value.

 

[doublebogey7]

So if someone says,“only people who had a reasonable chance of winning would enter golf competitions without the handicap system”. I can't reply –that is cobblers. I have to point out that the evidence from non handicapped sports shows it to be incorrect.

For me this is where your argument falls before it even starts.

I do not know to which sports you refer but the latest Sport England survey would not appear to support your case. This shows that more people (670,608) regularly take part in golf at competition level than any other sport. Football (647,802) closely follows and then athletics (558, 756). The next best (angling) has less than a quarter of the numbers of golfers.

Footballers only regularly compete with players of equal ability (leagues) and a large number of disciplines (e.g jogging, cross country track and field etc) are included in the figures for Athletics. So clearly other sports exist without handicaps, but that is all they are doing. Golf on the other hand continues, in comparison, to thrive.

 

[Pro Zach]

Thanks Philm,


I must admit I was struggling to respond to Imurg's post without lowering the tone. The good news is my head's fine but the wall is a bit bruised.


I think if we removed the handicap tomorrow, what ensues might be much more entertaining than golf. But that's just my wicked side talking.

 

[Pro Zach]

MadAdey,

I very much doubt I would have Luke Donald quaking in his boots. Although I do have Mizuno woods. And he knows how good they are!


I haven't given much thought to divisions in non handicapped golf. I seem to be 50 years or so from convincing anyone to even consider a level playing field. If anyone did say, “OK in principle I might agree but we would need divisions” I would have to ask them what divisions. Personally I would be happy with one. I would still enter a competition regardless of not having a realistic chance of winning anything. I am not trying to cop out of the question but I think you would be better placed to answer it. What gap between abilities would you suggest if a level playing field was ever voted through.


I would find it quite interesting to see what people would accept if they had too. (I'm odd like that) Would they only want to compete against people with the same handicap? 1, 2, 3, 4, higher? But don't ask me. I'm so stupid I would try to beat Luke Donald.


Also don't forget that all of this would only work for stroke play competitions and not solve the problem people have in bounce games or match play. But it wouldn't prevent any one playing with anyone else. You wouldn't have to be paired with people in the same division.

 

[doublebogey7]

MadAdey,

I very much doubt I would have Luke Donald quaking in his boots. Although I do have Mizuno woods. And he knows how good they are!


I haven't given much thought to divisions in non handicapped golf. I seem to be 50 years or so from convincing anyone to even consider a level playing field. If anyone did say, “OK in principle I might agree but we would need divisions” I would have to ask them what divisions. Personally I would be happy with one. I would still enter a competition regardless of not having a realistic chance of winning anything. I am not trying to cop out of the question but I think you would be better placed to answer it. What gap between abilities would you suggest if a level playing field was ever voted through.


I would find it quite interesting to see what people would accept if they had too. (I'm odd like that) Would they only want to compete against people with the same handicap? 1, 2, 3, 4, higher? But don't ask me. I'm so stupid I would try to beat Luke Donald.


Also don't forget that all of this would only work for stroke play competitions and not solve the problem people have in bounce games or match play. But it wouldn't prevent any one playing with anyone else. You wouldn't have to be paired with people in the same division.

I don't understand this talk about divisions. Surely if you want everyone to play to the same rules on an equal footing then we all just play in one division. Anything else would just be replacing one form of handicapping for another.

 

[rosecott]

I don't understand this talk about divisions. Surely if you want everyone to play to the same rules on an equal footing then we all just play in one division. Anything else would just be replacing one form of handicapping for another.

We're talking prize money here. It's a given that the lower your handicap is, the smaller the variation there will be around your handicap. Conversely, at the higher end of the handicap ranges, there will be a much greater variance. Playing in divisions gets round, to some extent, the problem of the higher handicap player who perhaps scores 40+ points when he plays a blinder making it very difficult for the single figure guy to match it. So, in each division, it introduces another layer of making competition fairer.

Over to Pro Zach.

 

[garyinderry]

these are club competitions. we all know who the best golfers at the club are. they are the ones with the lowest handicap. its written on the board for all to see. we are not playing this game for a living. its at professional level where its a completly level field. at club level, the handicap system spreads the prizes around as everyone can win a prize of some description as they improve and start to chip away at the handicap. if this wasnt the case then we would all be paying 3quid a go just to buy the top 5 golfers at the club new ping jackets,tv's,crystal,vouchers every week.

bobmac- you didnt get a prize for that great round and thats unfortunate. how many prizes have you collected in your time while getting your handicap to 3 at the time. granted there should always be a small prize for gross in all fairness. there is at my club.

oh a pro zach, you sound like a 5 year old saying "so your saying i cant compete with luke donald?" your using the literial sense of the word. if you could "compete" with luke donald you would be on my TV every sunday on sky sports 3 coming down the stretch. you see, theres really no boundries in golf. if you are good enough then you can rise to the top. otherwise us amatures can just enjoy the game and dream that we could compete with mr donald and company.