Have you asked for your own Handicap to be cut?

[bladeplayer]

What?

Sorry should have said winter rules rather than P&P , our winter rules is placing everywhere .. except hazzards that is , if the weather is realy bad they take the bunkers out of play ..

Rosecott Curious as to what you mean by this ??.......Just noticed - it's Ireland!

 

[rosecott]

As I have probably said before, the only fair handicap allowance is none. But unfortunately a minority of people disagree with this.

You haven't talked all of us (or maybe any of us) round yet.

 

[rosecott]

Rosecott Curious as to what you mean by this ??.......Just noticed - it's Ireland!

Tongue was firmly in cheek with suggestion that you have your own rules in Ireland.

The standard local rule allows pick and place only on close mown areas, not in the rough.

 

[Pro Zach]

You haven't talked all of us (or maybe any of us) round yet.

Rome wasn't built in a day.........................allegedly.

 

[NWJocko]

As I have probably said before, the only fair handicap allowance is none. But unfortunately a minority of people disagree with this.


I have also pointed out that the handicap is bad for most peoples enjoyment of the game. Your post is one example of why. You are now worried about whether your handicap is correct and say you are feeling slightly embarrassed. The whole handicap system, and peoples acceptance of it, is based on the myth that winning is important. Winning is not important for the enjoyment of competition for most people, but avoiding embarrassment is very important for most people. So regardless of how hard you think you are trying to win the next competition, the likelihood is you will actually be trying to avoid being embarrassed


You are embarrassed because you are unsure if you deserve the handicap you are taking,but you don't need the handicap committee to sort this out. It is not against the rules to put a lower handicap on your card. So just put down the number you think you deserve.


If you are unsure how many shots you deserve, try doing this test. Imagine you are the only person in the competition who is allowed to take a handicap allowance, but you can take as many shots as you think fair. You will probably struggle to come up with any reason why you deserve to take any shots and have to write 0 on your card.


If everyone did this you would have a fair competition where the position you finish would be exactly where you deserved to finish based on your performance on the day. You would then get the satisfaction or disappointment you think your performance merits. But, win or lose, it would be down to you and not some unfair, inaccurate, meaningless, unnecessary, illogical handicap system. If you don't like losing, you could always write down a lower score than you actually took in the next competition. But I doubt you will want to do that.

Interesting take ProZach.

You come across as someone who is very competitive at all sports from your attitude, which is not a bad thing at all.

Where, in my opinion, your argument about zero handicaps falls down is this. What do you think people who aren't competitive, don't have the drive/determination/ambition in order to keep pushing their gross scores down would do?

Or are you happy for these guys to play off swindle/society handicaps and keep competition play limited to like minded people?

 

[Steve King]

I'm with Pro Zach...I've never been a fan of handicaps.

I played a lot of footie when I was younger and when we played knockout cup football against teams from higher & lower divisions, (different playing abilities) I don't ever remember giving or receiving a couple of goals head start to level things out.

@ Fore - Players who practice and are determined to get better invariably do...

Your h/c will find it's level and when you get there it's not always that easy to play to it...so enjoy the ride and don't mind the calls of 'bandit' as they'll be aimed at someone else the following week

 

[Mungoscorner]

Tongue was firmly in cheek with suggestion that you have your own rules in Ireland.

The standard local rule allows pick and place only on close mown areas, not in the rough.

Our course has preferred lies "through the green" it was decided by the committee and greenstaff that there was no clear definition between fairway and rough,because of this we can pick and place anywhere.

 

[rosecott]

Our course has preferred lies "through the green" it was decided by the committee and greenstaff that there was no clear definition between fairway and rough,because of this we can pick and place anywhere.

In which case, they cannot be qualifiers under CONGU rules.

 

[bladeplayer]

In which case, they cannot be qualifiers under CONGU rules.

maybe that why we do it so , ours are 13 hole comps so cant be qualifiers anyhow , (they cant , can they ?} i thought it was to save the course , wouldnt be too well up on it .. get handed the card get told placing everywhere bunkers in/out of play , temps/full greens etc

 

[Pro Zach]

Interesting take ProZach.

You come across as someone who is very competitive at all sports from your attitude, which is not a bad thing at all.

Where, in my opinion, your argument about zero handicaps falls down is this. What do you think people who aren't competitive, don't have the drive/determination/ambition in order to keep pushing their gross scores down would do?

Or are you happy for these guys to play off swindle/society handicaps and keep competition play limited to like minded people?

The people who don't have the drive, determination or ambition to keep pushing their gross scores down would find a level they are personally satisfied with and compete at that level. This is what happens in non handicapped sports and games. Non handicapped sports do not exclude people who don't have a realistic chance of winning.


I personally don't have much drive, determination or ambition in golf. It is unlikely that I will ever win a non handicapped competition against a scratch golfer.So, should I take a 28 shot advantage because I lack ambition?


Do you not think that throughout history and across cultures, competitions have been run without a handicap system, because it actually encourages people to try harder?

People actually introduce their children to golf and tell them the handicap is fair. If you have drive determination and ambition, kids, you have absolutely no more chance of winning. This is because that would be unfair to people who don't have ambition. Lazy people should have the same chance of winning as hard working people?


Seems like a strange thing to teach children.

 

[NWJocko]

The people who don't have the drive, determination or ambition to keep pushing their gross scores down would find a level they are personally satisfied with and compete at that level. This is what happens in non handicapped sports and games. Non handicapped sports do not exclude people who don't have a realistic chance of winning.


I personally don't have much drive, determination or ambition in golf. It is unlikely that I will ever win a non handicapped competition against a scratch golfer.So, should I take a 28 shot advantage because I lack ambition?


Do you not think that throughout history and across cultures, competitions have been run without a handicap system, because it actually encourages people to try harder?

People actually introduce their children to golf and tell them the handicap is fair. If you have drive determination and ambition, kids, you have absolutely no more chance of winning. This is because that would be unfair to people who don't have ambition. Lazy people should have the same chance of winning as hard working people?


Seems like a strange thing to teach children.

I think you're a bit OTT on the what you would teach children bit big man!! Golf, and all sports that are played recreationally for that matter, are a very different thing than real life. Ergo, the guidance you (and I do/will) give my children is, and will be, very different for life and something they are meant to be doing to enjoy.

I also think you would find very few golfers who think handicaps (and the way they're calculated) as "fair". They create a level(ish) playing field (at least that is their aim) perhaps but is a long way from a perfect system and, depending on your viewpoint, is very unfair at times.

So are you proposing "divisions" much like there are now that people would compete in but taking gross scores only?

Do you refuse to take a handicap when you play out of interest?

 

[rosecott]

I also think you would find very few golfers who think handicaps (and the way they're calculated) as "fair". Do you refuse to take a handicap when you play out of interest?

I have to disagree. In my experience (and I've had a lot) a highly significant majority of golfers have little or no issues with the handicapping system (particularly when they take an interest infinding out how it works). I am at a loss to imagine why the members of my club could possibly be at odds with the rest of golfers.

I too would be interested to know if Pro Zach has played in handicap events and entered his handicap as zero.

 

[NWJocko]

I have to disagree. In my experience (and I've had a lot) a highly significant majority of golfers have little or no issues with the handicapping system (particularly when they take an interest infinding out how it works). I am at a loss to imagine why the members of my club could possibly be at odds with the rest of golfers.

I too would be interested to know if Pro Zach has played in handicap events and entered his handicap as zero.

Perhaps "very few" was an overstatement I agree.

Personally I have no problem with the handicapping system, however there seem to be a lot of threads on here (and talk at clubs) around the "fairness" of CSS, Stableford favouring high handicaps etc etc.

I also think that the "advantage" ofa handicap depends on your approach. I don't think I could tell you with 100% certainty what holes on my course I receive shots on. I aim to get the ball in the hole in as few shots as possible and take it from there.

There are, however, golfers who like to use their shots which is a different approach. Not wrong/worse or anything, just different.

 

[Pro Zach]

I think you're a bit OTT on the what you would teach children bit big man!! Golf, and all sports that are played recreationally for that matter, are a very different thing than real life. Ergo, the guidance you (and I do/will) give my children is, and will be, very different for life and something they are meant to be doing to enjoy.

I also think you would find very few golfers who think handicaps (and the way they're calculated) as "fair". They create a level(ish) playing field (at least that is their aim) perhaps but is a long way from a perfect system and, depending on your viewpoint, is very unfair at times.

So are you proposing "divisions" much like there are now that people would compete in but taking gross scores only?

Do you refuse to take a handicap when you play out of interest?

I agree the bit about children is OTT in the sense that the message from golf will probably be irrelevant in comparison to all the other teachings in their life.Golfers seem unable to see that if one person is allowed to take 28 shots of his actual score and another person is not allowed to take any, it is unfair. Perhaps if I mention the emotive subject of children being taught unfairness than people might think about it more.


Golfers do think the handicap system is fair and often say that it levels the playing field. I keep pointing out that it does not.


A level playing field demands that the conditions and rules are the same for everyone. No one is given an advantage or disadvantage.


A handicap system is the opposite of a level playing field. It deliberately advantages or disadvantages the players based on ability. It effectively unlevels the playing field making some people run uphill and some people run downhill. Or it could be described as levelling the players.


Regardless of what we call them we clearly have two different systems. The first system is a perfect system. It is fair because it treats everyone equally and excludes no one. It works perfectly for humans because it is the instinctive natural fairness we are born with. It is basically the survival of the fittest. The strong win, the weak lose. The results are a hierarchy of abilities. People can put in as much or as little effort as they are personally happy with, and compete at that level.


This system is so good I don't think I have ever met anyone who has not enjoyed playing a game or sport under these conditions. I am not eloquent enough to do justice to this system in writing. But I shouldn't have to. The evidence is all there that people of all abilities compete under this system and get enjoyment from it.


Why would you want to use any other system?


To answer your questions:-


I wasn't actually proposing divisions. I was proposing that people should stop taking an unfair advantage that they don't deserve. If divisions will help people to do this, I am all for them.


I have always hated the handicap system. Because I loved the game I did join a club and use a handicap. I told myself it is only a game and if every one else is happy with it, why should I rock the boat. I played for about four years and luckily never won a competition. Then I did 'win' one, off 12 handicap. I had to smile and receive a prize. What I wanted to say is, “give it to the lad over there who shot 10 less than I did”.But manners prevented me from doing this. I stopped entering competitions and played a few rounds on my own till the end of the year, then gave up playing.


Last year I dug my clubs out and had a couple of games and realised I still love the game. I have looked at the local clubs and joined this forum. I asked on this forum if it was within the rules to write 0 on my card and if anyone would mind. I was going to join a club and not take a handicap allowance. But I probably won't. This is because it is going to be difficult to explain why I am putting 0 down. If I say it is because I like a harder competition I will have just introduced myself to many people as an idiot. If I say I think it is unfair, unhelpful to golfers, and the result is meaningless, many people will think I have just called them cheating idiots for believing in it. I don't think golfers are cheats or idiots, but I do think they are mistaken in their belief of the system.


Perhaps I will just take up badminton again. I was actually quite good at that.

 

[Philm]

i completely agree with Pro Zach.

and im completely against the handicap system. but i dont see it changing anytime soon.

i do however wish that club competition results were printed out in out of gross score to give you a really idea of how you were fairing.

i personally would love to see that i actually came 50th out of 150 or 100th out of 150 and could see the guys who shot roughly the same as me and then try and make my way up that leaderboard

then we could scrap the enterance fee for comps and play it as a really sport! would be dreamy!

also point of note, the 2s comp is the only fair thing that still exist in club golf, were a good player wins more than a hacker like me lol

Phil

 

[garyinderry]

the really good players, ie. the low single handicap players who usually shoot the lowest gross scores would usually pick up a two during their round meaning they effectively play the competitions for free. i got £8.50 for a 2 last year. that would pay 2 competitons for them. us hackers dont always collect on the twos. in fact i might make a note of how many i pick up in relation to how many times i enter them.

 

[NWJocko]

Pro Zach, I get the feeling you think I am disagreeing with you but I'm not.

Theoretically, I agree 100% with you. I played football to a professional level when I was younger, then semi pro after injuries. I had to work bleedin hard to get to where I was allied to the ability I had.

I think the problem that point of view faces is how ingrained the handicap system is. Using an example, members on here often talk about "using their shots" to make a bogey, net par. If I got to that point it would no longer be fun for me. I get course management and if that means the best shot is laying up on a par 4 then so be it.

The problem is that these golfers (or at least a proportion of them the size of which is another debate I suppose), who contribute to the running costs of the course etc, will disappear I think.

It annoys me that so much golf is stableford. Every week in the clubhouse all you hear about are "points".

All I care about is gross score, every week, regardless of type of comp I'm playing in and it frustrates me that people win stableford comps and don't know what they went round in.

It is each to their own and I appreciate other points of view but, in it's purest form, I agree with your argument.

 

[MadAdey]

ProZach...may I ask you a question here please. Why do you bother with the game if you hate it so much? The handicap system although maybe not the greatest invention actually allows people of all standards to play against each other, it is the only sport that does from my memory.

Ok so we scrap the handicap system altogether then. What do we do for competitions at our club? Anyone who knocks it round in the mid 80's is never going to enter a competition so you will end up with 10 people entering the monthly medal......

Comparing it to football is wrong. I stopped playing a few years ago due to screwing my knee up. But if I wanted to play football I could go and play at a level that matched my ability. Sunday pub league, district league, county league, midlands league, etc etc all the way up to Premiership. How do you propose to get golfers into some kind of competition that will match them against people of a similar ability?

Remember with golf some people play it for the recreational aspect be it through choice or just not having the time to dedicate yourself to it. Others do have the time to get in 2/3 rounds a week and 5+ hours on the practice ground so can commit more to becoming an accomplished golfer. Simple if you do not like the handicap system then enter competitions that do not have a handicap allowance.

 

[Pro Zach]

ProZach...may I ask you a question here please. Why do you bother with the game if you hate it so much? The handicap system although maybe not the greatest invention actually allows people of all standards to play against each other, it is the only sport that does from my memory.

Ok so we scrap the handicap system altogether then. What do we do for competitions at our club? Anyone who knocks it round in the mid 80's is never going to enter a competition so you will end up with 10 people entering the monthly medal......

Comparing it to football is wrong. I stopped playing a few years ago due to screwing my knee up. But if I wanted to play football I could go and play at a level that matched my ability. Sunday pub league, district league, county league, midlands league, etc etc all the way up to Premiership. How do you propose to get golfers into some kind of competition that will match them against people of a similar ability?

Remember with golf some people play it for the recreational aspect be it through choice or just not having the time to dedicate yourself to it. Others do have the time to get in 2/3 rounds a week and 5+ hours on the practice ground so can commit more to becoming an accomplished golfer. Simple if you do not like the handicap system then enter competitions that do not have a handicap allowance.

I will answer your question with quotes from my previous post: 'Because I loved the game I did join a club', and, 'I still love the game.'


If you are not willing to read, or try to understand, anything I write, it seems a bit pointless to comment on what you have written. However I'm doing nothing else, so what the hell.


You don't need a handicap to allow people of all standards to play against each other.If Luke Donald turns up here tomorrow and offers me a game of golf I will go and play him. I do not need a handicap to do that.


Your second question is difficult to be sure of. Because of peoples strongly held beliefs in the system, it is fair to say if you scrapped the handicap tomorrow it would be somewhat chaotic. I think there would be teddies thrown everywhere, dummies spat, pet lips out. People would be shouting how ridiculous it was, refusing to ever play again and storming off home.Perhaps to eat some cheese and squeak a bit. Hopefully cheese will encourage their balls to drop and they will stop stamping their feet and saying, “it's so unfair. I'm not playing if I can't win”


Most would go back to the club to play socially but not in competitions. The committee will have foreseen this and scrapped the entrance fee. Then people will grumble how crap it is but they might as well enter anyway. Then some of these will realise that they actually enjoy playing in a fair competition. They will remember what they probably learned when they first caught their dad letting them win. It's better to lose than win with an advantage. Some people will never admit they where wrong, and stop playing. Some will continue to play and grumble about how the game has been ruined, for the rest of their life. New comers to the game will start at the bottom and enjoy competing up the ladder of success to where ever they feel happiest. Just like humans have done since they evolved. They will possibly have to listen to a strange old bloke telling them how much better it used to be, when rubbish players where allowed to cheat good players out of the prizes.


I doubt it would be quite how I suggest and I suspect it is all meaningless drivel to you.


People who can't win,won't enter competitions, was described in a different thread by someone who liked the handicap, as silly. All the evidence from non handicapped competitions shows this.


Others have already described how you could run divisions in golf. The suggestion that you couldn't is also silly.


People enter competitions in many sports for the recreational aspect. To suggest golf is different is silly.


Do you realise you started with the idea that the handicap system allows any golfer to play with any other. Then you finished with the idea that it doesn't include me. Do you have any idea how many other people it excludes?

 

[Imurg]

You're blurring the edges.
If Luke Donald showed up one day - Yes you could play a round of Golf with him.
And that's the issue.
You could play WITH him. You couldn't compete against him because you would not be able to win..
For there to be competition between rivals, both must have a chance of winning, otherwise the word "Competition" is being used incorrectly.
There is a huge difference between playing with someone and playing against someone.

Without a handicapping system I would get bored.
As I've posted in a previous "handicap-bashing" thread, I play most of my Golf with Fragger. I'm off 5, he's off 22.
Without a handicap system I would win. Every week. Even if I had a bad day. I'd still beat him Gross.
How long would that keep either of our interest going?
Fragger is improving, but, just say he's reached his best, he's not going to improve......
Why would he bother coming out to get beaten every week. Why would I turn up knowing that I don't even have to play my best - or even well if he has a bad day too - to win?

You can play WITH someone any time.
You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability.
If those abilities are different, in Golf, we have a way of closing the gap.

Good Luck on you Crusade to rid us of the evil that is handicapping.
You have a long, long road to walk......