Have you asked for your own Handicap to be cut?

[bobmac]

I could write books about this subject............
When I was a junior, we had club comps.
All prizes were given to the best gross but a brand new shiney Dunlop 65 in it's wrapper for the lowest net score....just to encourage those just starting out.
Nowadays, in the VAST majority of club comps, it's come full circle and now all prizes go to the best nett scores and if you're lucky, there might be a best gross prize. But even then, you often have to pay extra to enter the best gross comp. And that's extra, not instead of, the nett comp.

When I grew up, I was a member of W-S-M GC.
I played in the monthly medal and scored 16 pars and 2 birdies off 3.
150 entrants and I beat them all, the nearest gross being 1 over
I was chuffed to bits.
I went to the shop to collect my prize to be told there was no gross prize and I came nowhere nett.
I never played another comp at WSM GC

So, I would like to see the main prizes go to the best gross scores ie the best players, but have some smaller prizes for the best nett to encourage the others coming through.

Where I think the h/cap system DOES work is in the little "in-games" you have with you mates/social golf / bounce games etc. That is where I believe the h/cap system was designed to help friends have a game and to make it competitive.

I know people will say "but they have divisions in comps" which is fine but apart from the club champs the overall winner will 99 out of 100 times be the best nett score.

So when people ask me "why make it best gross" My answer is always "why shouldn't the best golfer win the major prize"?

Fortunately, now when I play in a tournament, there's never cries of "bandit" at the prize giving.

 

[rosecott]

I could write books about this subject............

All you need to do is add your post to all of the posts from Pro Zach, do a bit of editing for repetition, and bingo, you've got enough material for a substantial tome.

 

[bobmac]

All you need to do is add your post to all of the posts from Pro Zach, do a bit of editing for repetition, and bingo, you've got enough material for a substantial tome.

Dont bite
Dont bite

 

[birdieman]

I could write books about this subject............
When I was a junior, we had club comps.
All prizes were given to the best gross but a brand new shiney Dunlop 65 in it's wrapper for the lowest net score....just to encourage those just starting out.
Nowadays, in the VAST majority of club comps, it's come full circle and now all prizes go to the best nett scores and if you're lucky, there might be a best gross prize. But even then, you often have to pay extra to enter the best gross comp. And that's extra, not instead of, the nett comp.

When I grew up, I was a member of W-S-M GC.
I played in the monthly medal and scored 16 pars and 2 birdies off 3.
150 entrants and I beat them all, the nearest gross being 1 over
I was chuffed to bits.
I went to the shop to collect my prize to be told there was no gross prize and I came nowhere nett.
I never played another comp at WSM GC

So, I would like to see the main prizes go to the best gross scores ie the best players, but have some smaller prizes for the best nett to encourage the others coming through.

Where I think the h/cap system DOES work is in the little "in-games" you have with you mates/social golf / bounce games etc. That is where I believe the h/cap system was designed to help friends have a game and to make it competitive.

I know people will say "but they have divisions in comps" which is fine but apart from the club champs the overall winner will 99 out of 100 times be the best nett score.

So when people ask me "why make it best gross" My answer is always "why shouldn't the best golfer win the major prize"?

Fortunately, now when I play in a tournament, there's never cries of "bandit" at the prize giving.

Well said Bob, a fairer spread of prizes would be better to include more scratch prizes. My main concern with the handicap system is that many(not all) 18+ handicap players never practice, they just roll up on a weekend and are just as likely to win as the 2 handicapper who has spend 4 hours that week practicing hard to be as good as he is. I know this scenario can be reversed but imo it is nearly always the former.
Handicaps do reflect scoring ability but don't reflect levels of practice and time put into getting better which makes them unfair, prizes should be weighted more to lower categories to encourage players of all levels to get better.
The 36 hole order of merit Open events are the way for good players to pick up a lot of prize vouichers as they are weighted to scratch scoring but within their own club events (cups and medals) low handicap players are not treated fairly imo.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I think our club has the balance right. We have 1st, 2nd, B/G, 3rd and 4th in all our comps. The major comps are 36 holes on the day which heavily favours the lower handicappers and we have a handicap limit of 20 in all finals to ensure players get to a reasonable standard before winning board comps etc. Club Championship is obviously gross.

The scenario Bob describes above (2 under gross winning now't) is appalling and I'm not surprised he fell out with the place (I would too). However I don't agree that making the main prize gross is the way forward. Yes, the best golfer wins but handicaps are supposed to be fair giving everyone a chance to win. Our "majors" last year were won (nett) by players off 4, 4, 3, 5, 3, 11, 3, 15 and our best gross prize has often gone to the 2nd best gross as the best gross picks up 1st or 2nd nett.

OK last year was maybe a fluke but overall we get a fair amount of low handicappers winning every year. If our comps were gross comps we would have every prize collected less than a dozen players who could compete at that level every year. It would encourage players to practice and get lower etc but it would also encourage most players to give up competitions altogether so the prizes wouldn't be worth winning anyway! As we play golf primarily for fun, not profit I think it's better to be inclusive in the way competition play is organised.

 

[chrisd]

I do tend to agree with Fyldewhite.

Our comps are rarely split by category but it's quite noticeable that when the course plays easy, the higher handicappers come in and when it's longer and tougher, the lower handicappers win. There has to be room for the improving player to stand a chance of doing something in a comp and my handicap (11) can be tough to win from, as I am neither going to win a scratch, nor beat an on form high handicapper. We do have a maximum playing handicap for the "honours board" comps of 18 which I think is just about right.

 

[Pro Zach]

You're blurring the edges.
If Luke Donald showed up one day - Yes you could play a round of Golf with him.
And that's the issue.
You could play WITH him. You couldn't compete against him because you would not be able to win..
For there to be competition between rivals, both must have a chance of winning, otherwise the word "Competition" is being used incorrectly.
There is a huge difference between playing with someone and playing against someone.

Without a handicapping system I would get bored.
As I've posted in a previous "handicap-bashing" thread, I play most of my Golf with Fragger. I'm off 5, he's off 22.
Without a handicap system I would win. Every week. Even if I had a bad day. I'd still beat him Gross.
How long would that keep either of our interest going?
Fragger is improving, but, just say he's reached his best, he's not going to improve......
Why would he bother coming out to get beaten every week. Why would I turn up knowing that I don't even have to play my best - or even well if he has a bad day too - to win?

You can play WITH someone any time.
You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability.
If those abilities are different, in Golf, we have a way of closing the gap.

Good Luck on you Crusade to rid us of the evil that is handicapping.
You have a long, long road to walk......

If you want to stand on the first tee with Luke Donald, believe you can't compete, are unable to win and throw the towel in, it is up to you. I have no problem with that.


However, I don't think you have a right to throw the towel in for me. I think it is somewhat arrogant to assume I should, or do, have the same mindset as you. Regardless of what you think, I can compete against Luke Donald. Using your definition of a competition, 'both must have a chance of winning'. I can compete, because I do have a chance of winning. I might have very little chance of winning and the odds are very much against me. But I have not lost before the first ball has been hit. So if it's all the same to you I will try to win right up to the point where the result proves who actually did win.


If I lose you can then try to gloat and say I told you so. You can then carry on in a smug mistaken belief that probabilities predict the future or are facts.


If you have more ability at golf than your brother, it is a fact. This will remain a fact until you get worse or he gets better. If you want to play a childish fantasy and pretend it is not true then it is up to you.


You say, “You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability”. If this is true for you then you can't compete against your brother. You do not have similar ability.


Golf has not found a way of closing that gap. Regardless of how many shots you give him your ability gap remains the same. That is the facts and the handicap does not change them.


Reality, the facts of life, can often seem harsh or unfair. But if you want to get maximum enjoyment and satisfaction, you have to change it by becoming better,or learn to live with it. Pretending you are the best is a poor substitute for actual achievement. Someone who has never broken a 100 would get more enjoyment from the mind-blowing achievement of not coming last in a fair competition than he will ever get from pretending he won. He will not be disappointed that he didn't win because winning would be an unrealistic goal.

 

[chris661]

If you want to stand on the first tee with Luke Donald, believe you can't compete, are unable to win and throw the towel in, it is up to you. I have no problem with that.


However, I don't think you have a right to throw the towel in for me. I think it is somewhat arrogant to assume I should, or do, have the same mindset as you. Regardless of what you think, I can compete against Luke Donald. Using your definition of a competition, 'both must have a chance of winning'. I can compete, because I do have a chance of winning. I might have very little chance of winning and the odds are very much against me. But I have not lost before the first ball has been hit. So if it's all the same to you I will try to win right up to the point where the result proves who actually did win.


If I lose you can then try to gloat and say I told you so. You can then carry on in a smug mistaken belief that probabilities predict the future or are facts.


If you have more ability at golf than your brother, it is a fact. This will remain a fact until you get worse or he gets better. If you want to play a childish fantasy and pretend it is not true then it is up to you.


You say, “You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability”. If this is true for you then you can't compete against your brother. You do not have similar ability.


Golf has not found away of closing that gap. Regardless of how many shots you give him your ability gap remains the same. That is the facts and the handicap does not change them.


Reality, the facts of life, can often seem harsh or unfair. But if you want to get maximum enjoyment and satisfaction, you have to change it by becoming better,or learn to live with it. Pretending you are the best is a poor substitute for actual achievement. Someone who has never broken a 100 would get more enjoyment from the mind-blowing achievement of not coming last in a fair competition than he will ever get from pretending he won. He will not be disappointed that he didn't win because winning would be an unrealistic goal.

Eh? What a load of cobblers.

 

[Pro Zach]

Eh? What a load of cobblers.

Well this reasoned argument has certainly convinced me. I better have a rethink.:mmm:

 

[MadAdey]

Well this reasoned argument has certainly convinced me. I better have a rethink.:mmm:

I do think that Chris has summed up that load of old dribble perfectly. SO you think you could compete with Luke Donald then? What handicap do you play off? Unless you are a scratch golfer I would be suprised if you managed to get past the 12th.

Let us be realistic here Luke Donald a player who can go around tour standard courses in 64 would certainly not have many problems shooting 2 - 4 shots under if not more every time down at your course. So if you think you could still be competitive with him then you must either be a top amateur player or live in a fantasy land.

You argument is all around making everyone play on a level playing field, but I have still not seen how you are going to achieve this. Most other sports are played in leagues, golf is not. You will join a football club that is in line with your current ability. In golf a club is full of people of all abilities.

 

[chris661]

I do think that Chris has summed up that load of old dribble perfectly. SO you think you could compete with Luke Donald then? What handicap do you play off? Unless you are a scratch golfer I would be suprised if you managed to get past the 12th.

There is a huge HUGE difference between someone who plays off scratch and a top touring pro. There is even a huge difference between someone who plays off +4 and a top touring pro. It is utterly rediculous to suggest it should be a level playing field for everyone.

 

[MadAdey]

There is a huge HUGE difference between someone who plays off scratch and a top touring pro. There is even a huge difference between someone who plays off +4 and a top touring pro. It is utterly rediculous to suggest it should be a level playing field for everyone.

My point exactly chris. We have a county golfer at my place who plays of a plus handicap, I am very competitive but lets be realistic, I could not give him a competitive game. I could maybe push him most of the way round but that is it.

Golf is a game that is played by people of all abilities and thanks to the handicapping system it enables us all to play against each other. If we had a vote on here I think that 99.9% of people would not scrap the handicapping system, so why should things be changed for a very small minority.

 

[Imurg]

If you want to stand on the first tee with Luke Donald, believe you can't compete, are unable to win and throw the towel in, it is up to you. I have no problem with that.


However, I don't think you have a right to throw the towel in for me. I think it is somewhat arrogant to assume I should, or do, have the same mindset as you. Regardless of what you think, I can compete against Luke Donald. Using your definition of a competition, 'both must have a chance of winning'. I can compete, because I do have a chance of winning. I might have very little chance of winning and the odds are very much against me. But I have not lost before the first ball has been hit. So if it's all the same to you I will try to win right up to the point where the result proves who actually did win.


If I lose you can then try to gloat and say I told you so. You can then carry on in a smug mistaken belief that probabilities predict the future or are facts.


If you have more ability at golf than your brother, it is a fact. This will remain a fact until you get worse or he gets better. If you want to play a childish fantasy and pretend it is not true then it is up to you.


You say, “You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability”. If this is true for you then you can't compete against your brother. You do not have similar ability.


Golf has not found a way of closing that gap. Regardless of how many shots you give him your ability gap remains the same. That is the facts and the handicap does not change them.


Reality, the facts of life, can often seem harsh or unfair. But if you want to get maximum enjoyment and satisfaction, you have to change it by becoming better,or learn to live with it. Pretending you are the best is a poor substitute for actual achievement. Someone who has never broken a 100 would get more enjoyment from the mind-blowing achievement of not coming last in a fair competition than he will ever get from pretending he won. He will not be disappointed that he didn't win because winning would be an unrealistic goal.

Eh? What a load of cobblers.

Glad you said that Chris - saved me having to.....

 

[TheJezster]

I think what prozach says is nonsense, but let's face it, he is perfectly entitled to his view. Noone is going to change his mind, it's what he believes.

Yes, he may be in a minority of less than 0.1% of the golfing population, but he still has the view.

I dont agree with any of it, it's not accurate, but I'm not going to try to change his opinion. Noone else will and thankfully the powers that be wouldnt dream of going down that route either as it would ruin golf as a social game.

Fair play to him for standing up for his beliefs though, I'll happily let him play off scratch if I ever play him ;-)

 

[rosecott]

Yes, he may be in a minority of less than 0.1% of the golfing population, but he still has the view.

Yes - but can he not say it a bit more succinctly.

 

[Pro Zach]

I do think that Chris has summed up that load of old dribble perfectly. SO you think you could compete with Luke Donald then? What handicap do you play off? Unless you are a scratch golfer I would be suprised if you managed to get past the 12th.

Let us be realistic here Luke Donald a player who can go around tour standard courses in 64 would certainly not have many problems shooting 2 - 4 shots under if not more every time down at your course. So if you think you could still be competitive with him then you must either be a top amateur player or live in a fantasy land.

You argument is all around making everyone play on a level playing field, but I have still not seen how you are going to achieve this. Most other sports are played in leagues, golf is not. You will join a football club that is in line with your current ability. In golf a club is full of people of all abilities.

We seem to have a different definition of 'compete'. In the Oxford dictionary it is described as: strive for superiority or supremacy: take part in a contest etc. and in the Cambridge dictionary: to try to be more successful than someone or something else: to take part in a race or competition.


Competing has nothing whatsoever to do with the chances of winning.

 

[Pro Zach]

Yes - but can he not say it a bit more succinctly.

No.

 

[MadAdey]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is why this is a forum site. I would still love to hear some answers to the questions that I have put to Zach already.

 

[wolfie677]

There are two players at our club who always find themselves in the first three each week and the club members are not too pleased their money goes to the usual suspects. However, one of these players is me. I have been playing for almost two years now and find myself in a position that I improve quicker than my handicap can get cut. Only yesterday I played -5 my handicap on the back 9 of our course in very windy conditions and driving it 284yds on at least three occasions. Whilst it makes me feel brilliant how good I am getting others find it very frustrating that someone with my handicap can play like this. Golf should be played in a spirit it has done for so many years. I try to continue this spirit and have submitted cards this year, being cut 1.1 already. The £20 I won in the club school this year I gave to the club treasurer to plough back into the club funds. I didnt do this for accepatance by other members or for myself to feel better, as i did it in private and have not told anyone, but to play golf in a manner that conforms to the etiquette I believe in. The point of this post is to answer the opening statement to this thread - submit a card, or two. Its not to appease everyone else but to officailly show yourself that all the slices, hooks and wrong club selections you make, you are still getting better with all your hard work - and the golfing world can see this.

 

[Pro Zach]

My lack of succinctness is partly due to not exactly being off scratch when it comes to written English. ( I imagine everyone can see that) But as TheJezster says I have a different belief to most other golfers. The only two things I know are, I think I'm right and I could be wrong. Comments such as 'Eh? What a load of cobblers' are at best pointless. He could be correct, but to simply state someone is wrong, without explanation, is in my view arrogant and offensive.


So if someone says,“only people who had a reasonable chance of winning would enter golf competitions without the handicap system”. I can't reply –that is cobblers. I have to point out that the evidence from non handicapped sports shows it to be incorrect.


But often people refuse to see the evidence because they refuse to accept that their belief could be wrong. Which is why, when I point out I can compete against Luke Donald, some people will still believe this is cobblers. But this it is not my opinion. It is a fact by definition.


MadAdey,


I can't see any questions you have asked that I haven't tried to address.