4BBB can you mark your own card

[Arthur Wedge]

I assume you are simply giving an opinion on the Rule of Golf that requires a score to be attested? Rather than giving any definitive Ruling.

The Rules of Golf require a score to be attested, and so I assume this is a Rule a Committee should not simply decide to ignore in a 4BBB competition? Whereas, if a Team of 3 or Team of 4 competition, it is blatantly obvious why it wouldn't be practical to have a marker. So, presumably that is why that Rule can be relaxed in such competitions, and why competitors entering such competitions are happy enough with that condition. And, those that are not, will probably not bother entering in the first place.

Would you be happy for the Rules of Golf to scrap having a marker entirely, so golfers can just submit their own scores in any competition without any attestation?

Who attests the score in a 4 man team event

 

[Swango1980]

Who attests the score in a 4 man team event

Did you blatantly ignore the middle of my post (the bit that started "whereas...")

All your questions have been answered. Would you have the decency to answer my last paragraph?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Did you blatantly ignore the middle of my post (the bit that started "whereas...")

All your questions have been answered. Would you have the decency to answer my last paragraph?

So if the rules can be relaxed for a team to make their own card in team then can’t see why it can’t be done for two people in a 4bbb

I would be ok for a pair to do that in a competition I’m playing in

More than happy to trust “2 people”

which answers your last paragraph

 

[PaulMdj]

We're discussing organised competitions.
Not sure I've ever heard of a competition where there is a 6 hour gap between tee times.

Our organised Comps normally run from approx 08:00hrs to between 15:00-16:00hrs depending on entries, so if for some reason a pair fail to turn up on the morning for their early tee time you suggested moving the other pair to the end and make a 6 Ball.

 

[IanMcC]

My wife and I once travelled about 30 miles to a 4BBB Mixed Open. Our playing partners were present, but did not want to play in, what I can only describe, as a light shower.
The club did not provide a marker for us, and would not allow us to enter marking our own. I thought this was pretty rough on their part.

I will repeat what I heard at a Rules forum:

Definition of Marker

"In stroke play, the person responsible for entering a player’s score on the player’s scorecard and for certifying that scorecard. The marker may be another player, but not a partner.

"The Committee may identify who will be the player’s marker or tell the players how they may choose a marker."

The second paragraph was added to enable 3 and 4 player teams to mark their own card. The committee may stretch this to a pair marking their own if they see fit.

Remember, it is ultimately a game of integrity. Look what Theegala did this weekend, for example. He called himself for a bunker infringement that no one else saw. No one is on the shoulder of every golfer during play. There is trust for a player to abide by the rules. Why should marking a scorecard be any different?

 

[wjemather]

Our organised Comps normally run from approx 08:00hrs to between 15:00-16:00hrs depending on entries, so if for some reason a pair fail to turn up on the morning for their early tee time you suggested moving the other pair to the end and make a 6 Ball.

You've misunderstood. This isn't what I was suggesting at all.
For example, a stranded pair at 8:16 is moved into a group with one of the pairs at 8:24; the other 8:24 pair are joined by one of the 8:32 group; and so on.

 

[wjemather]

My wife and I once travelled about 30 miles to a 4BBB Mixed Open. Our playing partners were present, but did not want to play in, what I can only describe, as a light shower.
The club did not provide a marker for us, and would not allow us to enter marking our own. I thought this was pretty rough on their part.

I will repeat what I heard at a Rules forum:

Definition of Marker

"In stroke play, the person responsible for entering a player’s score on the player’s scorecard and for certifying that scorecard. The marker may be another player, but not a partner.

"The Committee may identify who will be the player’s marker or tell the players how they may choose a marker."

The second paragraph was added to enable 3 and 4 player teams to mark their own card. The committee may stretch this to a pair marking their own if they see fit.

Remember, it is ultimately a game of integrity. Look what Theegala did this weekend, for example. He called himself for a bunker infringement that no one else saw. No one is on the shoulder of every golfer during play. There is trust for a player to abide by the rules. Why should marking a scorecard be any different?

The second paragraph does not supersede or contradict the bit in bold (which is reinforced in the committee procedures). It is absolutely not there as a backdoor for marking your own scorecard.

 

[Swango1980]

So if the rules can be relaxed for a team to make their own card in team then can’t see why it can’t be done for two people in a 4bbb

I would be ok for a pair to do that in a competition I’m playing in

More than happy to trust “2 people”

which answers your last paragraph

Finally, an answer. Which is a personal opinion on which Rule of Golf you'd be happy to relax in 4BBB. And that is fine, we can all have personal opinions on which Rules we like and don't like. Which ones we reckon we could scrap without any real detriment.

However, as they stand, the Rules are the Rules. And so, would it be acceptable for a Committee to ignore a Rule that they could easily implement? Or ignore a rule for only one team but not the rest? As I said, they did so in a competition I played in a few weeks ago, and from the sounds of it, there were many competitors that did not hold the same opinion as you.

I suppose you could get a definitive answer if you asked your club to contact the R&A about the necessity of a marker in 4BBB

 

[Swango1980]

My wife and I once travelled about 30 miles to a 4BBB Mixed Open. Our playing partners were present, but did not want to play in, what I can only describe, as a light shower.
The club did not provide a marker for us, and would not allow us to enter marking our own. I thought this was pretty rough on their part.

I will repeat what I heard at a Rules forum:

Definition of Marker




The second paragraph was added to enable 3 and 4 player teams to mark their own card. The committee may stretch this to a pair marking their own if they see fit.

Remember, it is ultimately a game of integrity. Look what Theegala did this weekend, for example. He called himself for a bunker infringement that no one else saw. No one is on the shoulder of every golfer during play. There is trust for a player to abide by the rules. Why should marking a scorecard be any different?

I should probably point out, just because Theegala called a penalty on himself, it does not follow that all golfers would have the same integrity in that situation.

So, I'm not sure that incident can be used to demonstrate that there should be no requirement to have a marker?

 

[D-S]

There appears to be a disagreement about the actual rule or interpretation thereof.

What has been absent from this thread is input from the normal rules gurus, any views from them?

 

[Swango1980]

There appears to be a disagreement about the actual rule or interpretation thereof.

What has been absent from this thread is input from the normal rules gurus, any views from them?

I'd have said wjemather normally has a decent grasp on the rules?

I'm not convinced that anyone suggesting a marker isn't required in 4BBB is speaking in an expert capacity regarding the Rules?

But sure, would be good to hear from others that are known to have a good grasp on rules.

My opinion is that not having a marker in a Team of 3 or 4 event has absolutely nothing to do with trust, and everything to do with practicality?

 

[PaulMdj]

You've misunderstood. This isn't what I was suggesting at all.
For example, a stranded pair at 8:16 is moved into a group with one of the pairs at 8:24; the other 8:24 pair are joined by one of the 8:32 group; and so on.

Fair enough you could do that in an “Open” but I doubt it would work in a Club Comp as we don’t have anyone there to make that decision or force players to move down a slot.

In reality the stranded pair would simply not enter the Comp.

 

[wjemather]

Fair enough you could do that in an “Open” but I doubt it would work in a Club Comp as we don’t have anyone there to make that decision or force players to move down a slot.

In reality the stranded pair would simply not enter the Comp.

In the case of regular club comps, many committee responsibilities are usually delegated to the pro shop.

 

[PaulMdj]

In the case of regular club comps, many committee responsibilities are usually delegated to the pro shop.

Sadly, at least 1 day of the weekend the Pro Shop is manned by an 18yr Old lad.

 

[Steven Rules]

Let's just make it absolutely clear for everyone that scrambles are a 'fun', 'made up' format that are not covered by the Rules of Golf and are not acceptable for handicapping purposes.

Committees make up rules and terms as they please. I can think of many Rules that are traditionally 'relaxed' in the scramble format. For example:

× players standing on an extension of the line of play behind the ball of the player making a stroke
* not playing the ball as it lies
* making a stroke with a ball-marker still in place
* requiring balls to be played from 'like-for-like' situations (fairway-fairway, rough-rough)
* sharing clubs
* and now - let's throw into the mix - teams marking their own score

So please - let's not equate card marking in a scramble with card marking in a format that is covered by the Rules of Golf.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Let's just make it absolutely clear fpr everyone that scrambles are a 'fun', 'made up' format that are not covered by the Rules of Golf and are not acceptable for handicapping purposes.

Committees make up rules and terms as they please. I can think of many Rules that are traditionally 'relaxed' in the scramble format. For example:

× players standing on an extension of the line of play behind the ball of the player making a stroke
* not playing the ball as it lies
* making a stroke with a ball-marker still in place
* requiring balls to be played from 'like-for-like' situations (fairway-fairway, rough-rough)
* sharing clubs
* and now - let's throw into the mix - teams marking their own score

So please - let's not equate card marking in a scramble with card marking in a format that is covered by the Rules of Golf.

The point wasn’t limited to just scrambles - there are multiple 4 man team events

 

[Steven Rules]

Fair enough. But can you name any of those other four-person formats that are mentioned in the Rules of Golf (as opposed to the Committee Procedures)?

For good measure, Committee Procedures Section 9 has the following to say about all these other formats:

Any situation that is not covered either by the Rules of Golf or by the additional modifications for the format being played, should be decided by the Committee:

* Considering all the circumstances, and
* Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules and modified Rules for the format.

 

[salfordlad]

My understanding is very simple. In a straightforward 4 ball only event, a team of 2 by itself (no other players or marker with them) cannot participate.

Some clubs seek to avoid this by joining up individual and 4 ball events in various ways and the advance of electronic scoring makes this easier, the machine does the tallying, but it produces significant inconsistencies in the application of the rules by players on the course. Choose your poison.

3 and 4 person events are novelty creatures. I've never seen such an event anywhere that can deliver terms of the competition that will produce consistency of rules application. Some events like national, sponsored Scrambles attempt to produce competition terms that guide on some key elements but that can only go so far.

 

[rulie]

Maybe the Committee needs to appoint a referee for each group and that referee will also be the marker?

 

[D-S]

Fair enough. But can you name any of those other four-person formats that are mentioned in the Rules of Golf (as opposed to the Committee Procedures)?

Would this count?
Definition of a side from the Rules of Golf “Two or more partners competing as a single unit in a round in match play or stroke play.”
Does this obliquely mention more than two man formats?