Haotong Li penalty

[clubchamp98]

Here is what the specific Rule says:

(4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:

• The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.

And an Interpretation to explain:

Rule 10.2b(4) does not allow a player to have his or her caddie deliberately stand behind him or her when the player begins taking a stance because aiming at the intended target is one of the challenges the player must overcome alone.

There is no set procedure for determining when a player has begun to take a stance since each player has his or her own set-up routine. However, if a player has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given, it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance.

Examples of when a player has begun to take a stance include when:

The player is standing beside the ball but facing the hole with his or her club behind the ball, and then starts to turn his or her body to face the ball.

After standing behind the ball to determine the target line, the player takes a step forward and then starts to turn his or her body and puts a foot in place for the stroke.

Yes I have read it and it says “ deliberately “ I don’t think that’s the case here!
It’s a poor rule , open to interpretation.

 

[robinthehood]

Well seems that the ivory tower at the R&A based on that statement hasn't really acknowledged the ambiguity of the situation and fairness of how to apply the ruling. Doesn't matter how many times the rule is Quoted and posted it still doesn't sit right morally with many.

Yes under the new rules wording they can argue it was applied 100% correctly but having watched it several times I still don't agree that is what occurred. Likewise if it stated the putter head begined the ball no problem no room for error as that would be clear to decipher.

But that would allow the practice of lining up to carry on.

 

[duncan mackie]

Seems to me Orikoru gets vilified again for having an emotional opinion a rule is unfair and shouldn't have been applied using discretion, many others on here agree the ruling is harsh including myself and having read the statement Keith Pelley also believes this to be the case and is going to speak with Martin Slumbers about it. Yet so many people defend the rules because we'll they're the rules and everyone should accept it.

Just because that's what the book says and we have to apply doesn't make it something we have to agree with and not question.

I'd be interested in hearing Li's and his Caddy views on this.

Please don't confuse explaining a rule with defending it.
As said on the last long thread that ran a similar vein - if someone raises a specific viewpoint on a.rule then a debate can be had; without it there's not a lot to engage with.
We've now had a ruling body response, which is remarkably consistent with some responses made on the thread by those trying to explain the background so that any discussion could be more constructive, or meaningful.
I can almost guarantee that those who have officiated at events will have found themselves having to make rulings that, in their hearts they wish could have been different (I know I have - and in at least one case appreciated the professional coming up to me later recognising that it couldn't have been otherwise) - but the ultimate fairness in the rules will always be that the same thing applies to everyone in the same situation.

 

[clubchamp98]

STATEMENT FROM R&A CHIEF EXECUTIVE MARTIN SLUMBERS ON THE LI HAOTONG RULING

Martin Slumbers, Chief Executive of The R&A, said,
“We are continuing to monitor the impact of the new Rules but I made it clear to Keith that our focus is very much on maintaining the integrity of the Rules for all golfers worldwide.”

Well I hope they read this thread , because the integrity of the rules are being questioned by a lot of golfers here.

 

[rulefan]

I still don't agree that is what occurred.

Are you saying the player had not started to take his stance? What procedure does he normally follow? Have you seen him take a stance before

 

[clubchamp98]

Are you saying the player had not started to take his stance? What procedure does he normally follow? Have you seen him take a stance before

The referee would have to know every players routine to answer that question!
I would say the last time you move your feet before the stroke is taking your stance.

Also I will add he was getting out of the way of the winner( good etiquette) so he may of changed his normal PSR before this stroke and that’s what caught the caddy out.

 

[Wolf]

Please don't confuse explaining a rule with defending it.
As said on the last long thread that ran a similar vein - if someone raises a specific viewpoint on a.rule then a debate can be had; without it there's not a lot to engage with.
We've now had a ruling body response, which is remarkably consistent with some responses made on the thread by those trying to explain the background so that any discussion could be more constructive, or meaningful.
I can almost guarantee that those who have officiated at events will have found themselves having to make rulings that, in their hearts they wish could have been different (I know I have - and in at least one case appreciated the professional coming up to me later recognising that it couldn't have been otherwise) - but the ultimate fairness in the rules will always be that the same thing applies to everyone in the same situation.

I'm not confusing it at all, but it is always the case that when some will often continue to post the exact wording to defend the rule and it'd fairness to all.

Imo in this wording there is no fairness at all because its to open to interpretation as per this example with Li.

But that would allow the practice of lining up to carry on.

I disagree wholeheartedly as the only relevance to lining up a putt is the club face behind the ball not the positing of the feet or body. Many great putters over the years have stood open to the target line as the only thing that matters is the alignment of club face. So imo as long as the Caddy isn't there when the putter is placed behind the ball this is where the rule should kick in and relieves any issue of questioning the outcome.

As @clubchamp98 says bad rule open to interpretation and the rules are being questioned.

Are you saying the player had not started to take his stance? What procedure does he normally follow? Have you seen him take a stance before

I'm saying I don't agree with the wording and ruling of taking stance and the fact it has no ability to be applied accurately only in the opinion of the referee officiating at the time.

The caddy clearly moves before Li has his feet in position of the stance he used to address the ball so yes I am saying he hadn't started to take his stance. I could equally counter with saying how can you be so certain he had begun taking his stance. You cant be 100% certain only on what you interpret the beginning of his stance to look like.

 

[bobmac]

In my opinion when it's your turn to putt, the caddy moves away as you replace your ball and pick up your marker.
Problem solved

 

[clubchamp98]

In my opinion when it's your turn to putt, the caddy moves away as you replace your ball and pick up your marker.
Problem solved

Yes that is the right answer, but the lad was just trying to get out of the way of the winner.

 

[Imurg]

Here is what the specific Rule says:

(4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:

• The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.

And an Interpretation to explain:

Rule 10.2b(4) does not allow a player to have his or her caddie deliberately stand behind him or her when the player begins taking a stance because aiming at the intended target is one of the challenges the player must overcome alone.

There is no set procedure for determining when a player has begun to take a stance since each player has his or her own set-up routine. However, if a player has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given, it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance.

Examples of when a player has begun to take a stance include when:

- The player is standing beside the ball but facing the hole with his or her club behind the ball, and then starts to turn his or her body to face the ball.

- After standing behind the ball to determine the target line, the player takes a step forward and then starts to turn his or her body and puts a foot in place for the stroke.

Loathed as I am to admit that, according to the wording, the penalty has been applied correctly, there is a massive grey area surrounding when a player has or hasn't begun to take his stance.
If it's down to interpretation, another referee may have seen it differently and not applied a penalty.
That can't be right can it?
Surely rules have to be black and white so that understanding and applying them is standardised.
If this rule was bought in to stop players being lined up by their caddy, and there's not really another reason to have it other than to prevent lining up, why isn't lining up included in the text of the rule?
Why isn't taking or begining to take stance accurately defined?
If you're going to penalise people based on when they start to take a stance there has to be a "ground zero", a moment that can be observed as being part of all actions in the taking of a stance.
That doesn't exist, or is too difficult to pin down, and is, therefore, open to interpretation.
I have no problem with penalising lining up but this penalty doesn't sit comfortably with me.

 

[robinthehood]

You say to the letter it's a pen. Most on here say the same , the r and a say the same.... what's the grey area then ?

 

[Jacko_G]

Couple of rockets posting on this thread!

Rule has been passed, fair or unfair, move on please!

 

[clubchamp98]

Couple of rockets posting on this thread!

Rule has been passed, fair or unfair, move on please!

It’s a discussion forum.
Nobody has posted a definitive answer to “ when a stance starts “ that’s all I want to know.

 

[bobmac]

It’s a discussion forum.
Nobody has posted a definitive answer to “ when a stance starts “ that’s all I want to know.

When the referee says so

 

[Imurg]

When the referee says so

And that's the grey area!

 

[fundy]

Please don't confuse explaining a rule with defending it.
As said on the last long thread that ran a similar vein - if someone raises a specific viewpoint on a.rule then a debate can be had; without it there's not a lot to engage with.
We've now had a ruling body response, which is remarkably consistent with some responses made on the thread by those trying to explain the background so that any discussion could be more constructive, or meaningful.
I can almost guarantee that those who have officiated at events will have found themselves having to make rulings that, in their hearts they wish could have been different (I know I have - and in at least one case appreciated the professional coming up to me later recognising that it couldn't have been otherwise) - but the ultimate fairness in the rules will always be that the same thing applies to everyone in the same situation.

so every shot in this tournament they checked where the caddie was just before the stance was taken? or just those on tv, or just those in the main groups?

 

[clubchamp98]

When the referee says so

Ultimately yes but that’s a bit late for Li.
He could be penalised by a different ref next week for the step before,two steps before!
That’s inconsistent.

 

[bobmac]

And that's the grey area!

Only if the players/caddies try it on.
As I said before,
If the caddy moves away as you replace your ball and pick up your marker.
Problem solved

 

[fundy]

Only if the players/caddies try it on.
As I said before,
If the caddy moves away as you replace your ball and pick up your marker.
Problem solved

do you think Li or his caddie were trying it on Bob?

 

[bobmac]

do you think Li or his caddie were trying it on Bob?

I don't think so but it's irrelevant now.
All the players and caddies now know where they stand or shouldn't in this case.
If someone gets penalised in the future, it's their own fault.