Handicaps at different courses

[woody69]

I was bored the other day, so I was looking back at some old scorecards on my phone and it got me thinking that if those had been the cards I submitted as part of the process to getting an initial handicap how different my handicap would actually be.

I'm currently off 21 as I went around my home course on one of the three cards I submitted with 23 over, adjusted to 21 (1 hole rounded down to dble). Earlier this year I played another course with a friend and went round 19 over, but if it had been for initial handicap purposes it would have been an adjusted score of 16, (2 holes adjusted down to dble). That's 5 shots less than my actual h/cap and for me I'd be much happier saying I was off 16 rather than 21 even if I would struggle to play to it!

Not sure what point I'm trying to articulate, I just found it interesting that at that one course I could be off 16, but at my home course I'm 21 and tbh struggling to play to that!

 

[Stuey01]

So you had a good day. That doesn't mean that should be your handicap. I went round my Dad's course 10 over last week, that would have been adjusted to 8 over for handicap due to one horror hole.
Does that mean I should be off 8 at his course? No. It means I had a good day.

 

[Fyldewhite]

You have to remember that there is the "playing with a card in your hand" factor to consider. When you played your home course you knew it was for handicap so was like competition conditions. When you played the other course you had absolutely no pressure........and that makes a big diffeence.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

SSS would play a part as well, how many over par you were is only important if SSS=Par

 

[Stuey01]

Sorry if that came across blunt, it wasn't meant to be.

I do believe that some golfers may find it easier to shoot lower scores on certain courses. Differences in standard scratch deals with that on average for the whole population that plays, but at an individual level one course may exacerbate or mask your own flaws more than another, which may not be reflected in the standard scratch differences.

1 round is way too small a sample size though!

 

[pbrown7582]

Sorry if that came across blunt, it wasn't meant to be.

I do believe that some golfers may find it easier to shoot lower scores on certain courses. Differences in standard scratch deals with that on average for the whole population that plays, but at an individual level one course may exacerbate or mask your own flaws more than another, which may not be reflected in the standard scratch differences.

1 round is way too small a sample size though!

But that's the way England golf would prefer it your handicap as an indicated of your best comp golf not your average comp golf hence the low expected amount of scores to h/cap buffer over the season.

OP. As mentioned SSS could possibly add a couple to that 16?

 

[woody69]

So you had a good day. That doesn't mean that should be your handicap. I went round my Dad's course 10 over last week, that would have been adjusted to 8 over for handicap due to one horror hole.
Does that mean I should be off 8 at his course? No. It means I had a good day.

I understand that, but ultimately if that round on your dads course was one of your rounds as part of the 3 cards you submitted for your initial handicap, then it would absolutely mean you would get a handicap of 8 wouldn't it.

You have to remember that there is the "playing with a card in your hand" factor to consider. When you played your home course you knew it was for handicap so was like competition conditions. When you played the other course you had absolutely no pressure........and that makes a big diffeence.

I can see there would be an element of that, but I'm not sure just because you have a card in your hand and you have that added pressure it automatically means that you will not score particularly well. Who's to say if I was really concentrating on my card and getting a good score that I may have shot even lower?

SSS would play a part as well, how many over par you were is only important if SSS=Par

The 16 was calculated off the SSS.

 

[duncan mackie]

But that's the way England golf would prefer it your handicap as an indicated of your best comp golf not your average comp golf hence the low expected amount of scores to h/cap buffer over the season.

er - no, it's definitely not your best comp golf.

CSS expectation is that on any given day around 1/3 (between 1/4 and 1/2 is roughly the normal range for a mixed handicap group) will play to their handicap ie within buffer or better. Even accepting that a proportion will not actually play fully to the SSS within this it's statistically way higher than you suggest. For a cat 1 golfer it's around 30% of all comp rounds just to stand still.

 

[Foxholer]

But that's the way England golf would prefer it your handicap as an indicated of your best comp golf not your average comp golf hence the low expected amount of scores to h/cap buffer over the season.

OP. As mentioned SSS could possibly add a couple to that 16?

Certainly not your 'best' golf - otherwise it would be very rare for a 'stable' player to get a cut! 'Good' golf perhaps.

As mentioned, some folk have games that suit certain types of courses, others different ones. The big hitters on open courses can get into lots of trouble on tight courses, even if short. Those from tight courses can feel short on long, but open ones. I like to think my 'background' on links and a club with 2 courses of different styles means I can adjust pretty easily.

 

[the_coach]

Slope ...... course handicap ......... just let me get the lid back on before that worm gets out ... opphs! too late.....:rofl:

 

[Foxholer]

Slope ...... course handicap ......... just let me get the lid back on before that worm gets out ... opphs! too late.....:rofl:

:rofl:
That's actually another variable (or set of variables) again!

The OP's comment can apply to 2 courses with identical SSS/Course Ratings/Slopes!

 

[the_coach]

:rofl:
That's actually another variable (or set of variables) again!

The OP's comment can apply to 2 courses with identical SSS/Course Ratings/Slopes!

Then they under USPGA/USGA would be considered to have a similar degree of difficulty .....

 

[Foxholer]

Then they under USPGA/USGA would be considered to have a similar degree of difficulty .....

That was what the 2nd paragraph of Post 8 was about.

Trees can be a new (and slightly daunting) feature for a links golfer. Wide open, but long courses promote a certain type of play. They can be equal difficulty, but quite different - and favour different styles of play.

 

[patricks148]

That was what the 2nd paragraph of Post 8 was about.

Trees can be a new (and slightly daunting) feature for a links golfer. Wide open, but long courses promote a certain type of play. They can be equal difficulty, but quite different - and favour different styles of play.

Im not a fan of tree's, though i'm pretty straight off the Tee! I only hit two over 36 holes a woodhall spar.. one on the first on Sat and one on the 14th or 15th on sunday.

I always judge a course by the SSS, if its a Par 69 SSS 67 easy(er) par 70 SSS hard but those can also be the opposite depending on your point of view

 

[the_coach]

That was what the 2nd paragraph of Post 8 was about.

Trees can be a new (and slightly daunting) feature for a links golfer. Wide open, but long courses promote a certain type of play. They can be equal difficulty, but quite different - and favour different styles of play.

Sea Pines Hilton Head - Tiger tee Rating 147. Trees & more trees tighter demands accuracy: Tiger tee Pebble Beach - Rating 145. not so much on the tree side of things! demands accuracy as to the lie of the land & bounce & rough.

I get the point, my first post, nothing but a gentle prod .... but maybe not so much different styles of play, both styles of courses penalize wayward shots in different ways but to a similar degree.

Guessing that most ams if they have for some sort of mental block a dislike of one sort of course or another, in general they'll stay away from their own 'bete noire', but that doesn't mean the courses aren't of a similar though differing kind of difficulty, if looked at objectively & not subjectively.

Putting the worm back in can now .......... :rofl:

 

[duncan mackie]

Guessing that most ams if they have for some sort of mental block a dislike of one sort of course or another, in general they'll stay away from their own 'bete noire', but that doesn't mean the courses aren't of a similar though differing kind of difficulty, if looked at objectively & not subjectively.

Putting the worm back in can now .......... :rofl:

this is, of course, the key - it becomes subjective both in terms of an individuals performance and the opponent/fellow competitors.

in general terms the higher the handicap the greater the differential between a players absolute strengths and weaknesses ie a higher handicap player will have some really weak areas of their game and will probably, over time, develop some areas that are much stronger. They will, again over time, migrate to a course where the former aren't debilitating and the later can help their scoring (and will inevitably get still stronger and the gap opens up even more!)

stick such people on 2 equally rated courses but with fundamentally different natures and they are unlikely to see them as similar in difficulty! :thup:

this will apply across the spectrum of capability, and it's only really when you start to define your group closely (25-30 year old Scr golfers based in Surrey for example) that you will see similar scoring patterns amongst the group when playing different course set-ups.....but they will still score at different levels on these different layouts!

probably the most obvious example of this was around 30-40 years ago when the professionals of the time really started competing
against each other on both links and US parkland layouts! Nowadays the differences are less as they all play such a wide range of courses worldwide and develop a much more complete game earlier in their careers.

 

[the_coach]

I guess it's a lot easier to a certain extent to rate courses (used on Tour) in terms of difficulty in the Tour Pro ranks. They have the game to make it more of an objective look at it.

Speaking of the PGA tour, as all you really have to do is look at all the competition scores across all the courses used over time in relation to the score over par for the particular course across all the competitors.

Usually Merion comes out as being the toughest over all, kind of ironic as there's always the fuss of it being a good ways 'too short' for the modern game!

 

[Foxholer]

Usually Merion comes out as being the toughest over all, kind of ironic as there's always the fuss of it being a good ways 'too short' for the modern game!

Well with a Rating of 3.5 over Par and a Slope of 149, that's one tough Golf Course for a shortie!