Handicap system

[Leftie]

I've done a quick search and can't any relavent previous postings.

Our current handicap system works very well and enables players of completely different standards to play competitively against each other - particularly when their h/c's are gained on the same course.

The problem I have found when playing club friendlies is that because courses have different levels of difficulty (I know, you have still got to get the ball into the hole) a player from course A may be more/less skillful than a player from course B with an identical h/c, based on the difficulty of their home course.

I believe that America and some other countries use the Course Slope Rating system to even out this disparity so that everyone with an official h/c can be more certain that their (slope adjusted) h/c is right for the course being played.

Has anyone 1st hand exerience of it? Does it work? Is it too much bother? Have we considered and rejected it?

 

[geronimo]

how can that work, you could find a course more difficult than me but you are a better golfer than me.

I win because the course better suits my game, but is classed as a harder course.

Suppose that would give me a double advantage as i would get more than my h'cap and a course that suits my game.

 

[birdieman]

The problem I have found when playing club friendlies is that because courses have different levels of difficulty (I know, you have still got to get the ball into the hole) a player from course A may be more/less skillful than a player from course B with an identical h/c, based on the difficulty of their home course.

This is not the case - that's why each course has a measured standard scratch score (SSS) that handicaps are based on precisely to measure difficulty based on a range of factors like length, hazards, green slopes etc. A 10 handicap player from an easy course has the same ability as a 10 handicap player from a difficult course. If both courses are par 70 one may have a SSS of 66 for example, the harder one SSS 74. That means the 10 handicapper is expected to score 76 on the easy course and the 84 on the harder one.
It's not perfect but better than the US system and as good as it's going to be.

 

[Dormie]

The problem I have found when playing club friendlies is that because courses have different levels of difficulty (I know, you have still got to get the ball into the hole) a player from course A may be more/less skillful than a player from course B with an identical h/c, based on the difficulty of their home course.

This is not the case - that's why each course has a measured standard scratch score (SSS) that handicaps are based on precisely to measure difficulty based on a range of factors like length, hazards, green slopes etc. A 10 handicap player from an easy course has the same ability as a 10 handicap player from a difficult course. If both courses are par 70 one may have a SSS of 66 for example, the harder one SSS 74. That means the 10 handicapper is expected to score 76 on the easy course and the 84 on the harder one.
It's not perfect but better than the US system and as good as it's going to be.

Agreed and well put.

 

[RGuk]

the system is about as good as it can be.....but i don't agree with some of the postings in some respects. a 10 handicapper is not always the same, regardless of the sss system etc.etc. my course has a sss of two less than the par, based on the overall length primarily. it is an easy course, and (dare i say it) the 2 shot difference is not enough to convince me that someone who goes round my course in 8 is the same as someone from a genuinely long/difficult course who goes round in 10.

i play frequently against a chap from one of the trickier clubs on the west coast golf "riviera" (above liverpool). we share the same handicap and I get whooped every time out.
at his course, I have to take driver on every hole, because the extra 30 yards on 6 or 7 of the par fours make my life a misery. also, his course is absolutely swarming with bunkers. i am happy to go round in 90.

there will always be anecdotal stories, but there is a difference and this cannot be helped. anyone wanting to prove the point with genuine scores over 1000s of rounds only needs to look at the birmingham alliance competitions (all the public course of birmingham, every score made, every club result counted etc.) there are patterns that unequivicaly prove all 10 handicappers are not indeed equal.
personaly, i'd like my course to be harder so when a big boys course player comes to my club, they can't turn so many holes into drive and chip pars.

Dave

 

[Leftie]

there will always be anecdotal stories, but there is a difference and this cannot be helped. anyone wanting to prove the point with genuine scores over 1000s of rounds only needs to look at the birmingham alliance competitions (all the public course of birmingham, every score made, every club result counted etc.) there are patterns that unequivicaly prove all 10 handicappers are not indeed equal.
personaly, i'd like my course to be harder so when a big boys course player comes to my club, they can't turn so many holes into drive and chip pars.

Dave

Thanks Dave. You have reinforced my views on this one.

I might be getting a little out of my depth but aren't handicap adjustments made on the CSS not SSS. So if the course and/or playing conditions are favourable then the average score should be lower hence the lower CSS and h/c cuts. So, because of the "easier" course and conditions, you are at a disadvantage if you go to a course that doesn't play so easy - particularly when strokes are taken against Par, not SSS.

 

[RGuk]

Yes (I'm no expert), h'cap adjustments will be made on the CSS.

I suspect that in reality, there are far too many factors for each/every system to cover all possibilities.

I get grief on long courses, (too many 3bj's) whereas my regular playing partner (weekend 2 balls) will play more or less the same regardless of length.

When I joined a posh club in 1994, they asked me what I played off, I replied 14, but round here, it'd be more likely 16 at least. The secretary's reply was "14 mistakes is 14 mistakes!" to which I came back with, "yes, but it's not 14 mistakes, if I can't reach 6 of the holes in reg', it's only 8 mistakes". a long course could potentialy limit me to a load of boring bogeys, where's a short course (with lots of 3w tee shots) could gift me a load of pars without breaking sweat.
maybe i'm the only one who struggles with this and it's all in my mind.
at my old course the par 3s were all 180-210. at my new course they are 120-178, it's no surprise I'm scoring twice as many pars on the short holes these days!!

 

[birdieman]

If what Realgolfer says is true then the SSS measurements are incorrect and one or more club should be re-measured. As I said it's not a perfect system but with every golf course different you'd expect that.
Leftie I dont really understand your last post. If conditions are favourable and scoring is low the CSS will go UP not down so there wont be handicap cuts nescessarily.
Par has nothing to do with handicap calculations, CSS linked closely to SSS (not par).

 

[Leftie]

BM. You are absolutely right about the CSS. My apologies, I said that I was out of my depth on that one.

The point that I was trying to make was that my present 15 h/cap is at my home club which is very mature, about 6500 yds off the whites and a good test of golf. So an "average" members course. As a result I would expect a competitive game against someone from a similar "average" course.

However, take the scenario where I had to play 2 matches - one against a member from (say) Carnoustie and one from one of the newer courses in my area that have few mature trees yet, just staked plantations between the fairways.

I know which one I should win assuming I play to the same standard both matches.

 

[USER1999]

I am absolutely useless if there is water on the course. I can't imagine finishing a medal round in my wildest dreams if there is lots of water (Pyrford anyone?). I have some sort of attraction to the water. Even if I don't know there is a pond there, I will still find it.

As a result (you were wondering where this was going), if I had to medal on a course with lots of water, my handicap would be 28. On the other hand, I could play a 'dry' course loads under 28.

This is why florida is fun, trying to keep the ball dry.