Handicap manipulation - how to address

[doublebogey7]

I have done so before.

Here's a simple example.

Take two players.

Player A practises a lot and regularly shoots low 80s and his 8 cards are from 78 and 82. Player B is actually a better ball striker but doesn't practise. He plays once a fortnight and his 8 cards are between 75 and 90.

Let's say CR is 73 for example.

Player A is off 7ish and is likely to have a best score of 38 points.

Player B is off 10ish but can get 43 points when his talent turns up.

With their current handicaps and scoring patterns Player A will almost certainly win at match play 15 or more times out of twenty. So how many shots would you like to cut him.

 

[Colin L]

I have done so before.

Here's a simple example.

Take two players.

Player A practises a lot and regularly shoots low 80s and his 8 cards are from 78 and 82. Player B is actually a better ball striker but doesn't practise. He plays once a fortnight and his 8 cards are between 75 and 90.

Let's say CR is 73 for example.

Player A is off 7ish and is likely to have a best score of 38 points.

Player B is off 10ish but can get 43 points when his talent turns up.

After striking out wholly irrelevant information and conjecture, what is left? Their handicaps are based on the verified facts of their gross scores, demonstrating their current ability, not speculation, not on whether they practise. Your scores go into a computer programmed to make a calculation on actual happenings, not into a crystal ball.

 

[rulefan]

I have done so before.

Here's a simple example.

Take two players.

Player A practises a lot and regularly shoots low 80s and his 8 cards are from 78 and 82. Player B is actually a better ball striker but doesn't practise. He plays once a fortnight and his 8 cards are between 75 and 90.

Let's say CR is 73 for example.

Player A is off 7ish and is likely to have a best score of 38 points.

Player B is off 10ish but can get 43 points when his talent turns up.

Who do you believe will win more competitions and who do you believe should?
Is B's lack of practice by choice or due to circumstances beyond his control?

What exactly are you proposing be done to WHS to change anything?

 

[Thintowin]

Here is an example of the best 8 differentials scored by 34 players at my club...all players play regularly in comps and have fully developed records with 20 scores at least in 2024...none of them have more than 2 GP scores in their best 8 9and those that do will be players at the upper end of the handicap index range).

As can be seen, none of them have best 8's where the worst scores vary wildly and their worst score is significantly higher than their index. These players were not hand picked to prove a point, they were random selections, at roughly even spaced handicap indexes, of players who I know play regularly and have a high number of comp cards in their record. The whole point of taking 8 from 20 is that it removes the vast majority of statistical outliers (like a 10 handicapper having a 90 as part of their best 8 scores).

The biggest differentials between the worst of the 8 scores and the Handicap index is 4.1 (for JB, the 34.4 index player) and 3.8 (for AB, the 24.4 player).

View attachment 56522

Yes and I can see that the range is higher for higher handicappers.

 

[Thintowin]

Who do you believe will win more competitions and who do you believe should?
Is B's lack of practice by choice or due to circumstances beyond his control?

What exactly are you proposing be done to WHS to change anything?

I don't think B is happy to win. He knows he is better than his handicap. He was happier under UHS when he was lower as he knew he could play to it when his form appeared.

I don't think WHS is good for the golfers self esteem, if he has any that is.

 

[rulefan]

..... think ......

Speculation?

But I asked three simple questions, you answered none.

 

[wjemather]

I don't think B is happy to win. He knows he is better than his handicap. He was happier under UHS when he was lower as he knew he could play to it when his form appeared.

I don't think WHS is good for the golfers self esteem, if he has any that is.

You're talking about someone having/wanting a vanity handicap, which has nothing to do with real handicapping.

 

[doublebogey7]

I don't think B is happy to win. He knows he is better than his handicap. He was happier under UHS when he was lower as he knew he could play to it when his form appeared.

I don't think WHS is good for the golfers self esteem, if he has any that is.

Bloody hell, even under WHS player B would lose in MP the vast majority of the time, under UHS it would have been even more often, I doubt going back would make him happier myself, but then I have yet to see a player with a scoring profile such as that. Guess you must know him better than me

 

[rulie]

For some real data on real players, see post 1975 in Ask The Experts, WHS & ISV….Shows some average and Std Dev (variability) for different handicap groups.

 

[clubchamp98]

So basically, one side is saying we have data which proves WHS is an improvement on what came before.
But the other says they have real world experience that suggests it's not.
And never the twain shall meet.

I’ll go with players over a spreadsheet every day.

 

[IanM]

Just to be clear.

Anyone beating me in a comp with more than 36 points is a cheating scumbag.

When I get 42, it's pure skill on a red letter day!

Anyone disagreeing is clearly delusional

 

[bobmac]

Can someone help me out please....
In the olden days, I'm sure I read somewhere that your handicap should reflect your potential scoring ability.
On a good day with a favouring wind and the golfing gods smiling down, you should play to your handicap.
Has that changed with the WHS?

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes and I can see that the range is higher for higher handicappers.

Which is exactly what you would expect.

Though the variation isn't significant and even the 20 plus handicappers don't show the variation that your mythical 10 handicapper has.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yet prior to the WHS every single Supplementary Score card was checked and the score entered on the players record by the staff and we had quite a few a day going in. So it be argued that the workload did not go up and actually went down particularly if players used the EG/Scottish app instead of PSI screens.

But the Comittiee checked all the cards.
Would your workload be up if you checked every GP card now?

The app and GP cards are a problem imo.

 

[wjemather]

Can someone help me out please....
In the olden days, I'm sure I read somewhere that your handicap should reflect your potential scoring ability.
On a good day with a favouring wind and the golfing gods smiling down, you should play to your handicap.
Has that changed with the WHS?

It was certainly said, but was never actually the case.
What is true is that on average, low handicappers would play-to-handicap far more often than higher handicappers (1 in 3 or 4 rounds vs 1 in 5 or 6 or [a lot] more). Now, it's about the same (about 1 in 5).

 

[Thintowin]

Which is exactly what you would expect.

Though the variation isn't significant and even the 20 plus handicappers don't show the variation that your mythical 10 handicapper has.

My example was made up but the fact that range of scoring isn't a factor in the calculation is just plain wrong. Add to that the fact that range will naturally widen up through the handicaps.

Why isn't it a factor?

 

[clubchamp98]

If someone plays off 5 at 63 will he still be capable of playing off 5 at 73? (asking for a 'friend').

I’m at this stage now.
While technology really helps its the length that’s the problem.
But short game and putting dosnt really change you need your A game to stay still.

But that’s a personal goal to stay in single figures.
I could do it easy and get to 3 or 4 if I put a few incorrect GP cards in ,it is really that easy to cheat the system if you have a dodgy mate.
But I would not do that !

 

[rulefan]

Can someone help me out please....
In the olden days, I'm sure I read somewhere that your handicap should reflect your potential scoring ability.
On a good day with a favouring wind and the golfing gods smiling down, you should play to your handicap.
Has that changed with the WHS?

It has. The Handicap Index now is a measure of demonstrated ability.

 

[Thintowin]

It has. The Handicap Index now is a measure of demonstrated ability.

It's not quite worked out that way though, has it? Otherwise we'd all be sitting contently looking forward to another healthy golfing season to come.

 

[Thintowin]

It has. The Handicap Index now is a measure of demonstrated ability.

What you've underlined is classic marketing speak. It sounds good but means nothing specific.